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Bloomberg Hit Pieces on Alex Jones and Aaronovitch (12 posts)

  1. truthmod
    Administrator

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088...

    Conspiracy Buffs Warn of Kissinger Cabal, Red Mailbox Dots: TV

    May 26 (Bloomberg) -- Radio host Alex Jones says 9/11 was “an inside job” orchestrated to create panic and more reliance on an increasingly repressive government. One of his sympathizers is convinced that Halliburton Co. is building “concentration camps” capable of holding 50 million Americans.

    Jones and his fellow conspiracy theorists are the subject of “New World Order,” an engrossing, scary documentary airing tonight on IFC at 6:45 p.m. New York time.


    No Facts

    Jones and his cohorts offer no evidence to back up their fantastic tales. I don’t know whether this is because evidence isn’t their thing, or because filmmakers Luke Meyer and Andrew Neel preferred to concentrate on wacky personalities rather than hard facts.

    Did anybody see this?

    http://www.ifc.com/new-world-order/

    Diana’s Death, ‘Da Vinci Code’ Feed Lust for Conspiracy: Books

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088...

    May 26 (Bloomberg) -- David Aaronovitch is a brave and patient man.

    He read up on endless insane conspiracy theories, then set out to debunk them in his engaging book, “Voodoo Histories.” He must have annoyed a lot of people in the process.

    An awesome number of men and women believe that U.K. agents bumped off Princess Diana, that 9/11 wasn’t what it seemed, that Dan Brown’s “The Da Vinci Code” is more than a novel, and that Marilyn Monroe died of a poisoned enema. Equally breathtaking is their reluctance to see their cherished theories trashed.

    Aaronovitch, who writes a column for the Times newspaper in London, distinguishes between conspiracy theories that feed on facts and those that are utter fabrications.

    U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy, for example, was an out-of- control conspiracy theorist. But that doesn’t mean there were no Communist moles in the country. Ethel and Julius Rosenberg and many others were indeed found guilty of spying for the Soviet Union. Newly released records show that Comintern agents penetrated the U.S. to a surprising extent, though never enough to justify the panic and infractions against civil liberties that the paranoid McCarthy whipped up.

    Other “conspiracies” have turned out to be pure fiction, like “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.” An infamous forgery, the book purported to be the notes from a Zionist Congress where participants supposedly plotted in 1897 to overthrow national governments. The hoax inspired a generation of Nazis and played a role in the Holocaust.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  2. JohnA
    Member

    I watched and taped the IFC documentary New World Order. It was extremely painful to watch. Embarrassing. Luke got quite a bit of airtime, as did Alex Jones and a few others.

    i think the overarching 'message' that this documentary relayed to its audience was that these 'conspiracy theories' are the product of passionate well-intentioned and sincere - but paranoid self-deceiving individuals, taken in by the slick marketing campaign of charismatic personalities like Alex Jones and other militia types.

    i did quite a bit of squirming in my seat just sitting thru it.

    Very little was presented to sway the audience to the side of the 'conspiracy theorists.' While their actions were explored (e.g. street activism, DVD distributions, etc etc) very little was FACTUALLY presented to make their case. It was more a psychological study of the people themselves. And the few facts (and i use the term lightly) that were presented were juxtaposed against the incredulous reactions of street people who quite easily blew holes in what they believed.

    One particularly painful scene showed a 9/11 activist in New Orleans basically embarrassing himself attempting to convince people, smarter than himself, that a plane did not hit the Pentagon. It was almost sad to watch. One of the people he was speaking to attempted to convince the 9/11 Truth activist that he should re-evaluate his life and do something better with his time. The 9/11 activist is then shown talking into the camera about his own personal articles of faith: i believe that Jesus walked on water. i believe Jesus is my personal savior.

    yikes.

    9/11 urban legends (like missing planes at the Pentagon) are presented as articles of faith - a fundamentalist belief system - on the fringe of society and the product of a disenfranchised populous.

    And of course we have Luke - the sincere but 'not too bright' kid from New York mouthing the dogma of Alex Jones in front of a refrigerator decorated with Loose Change decals - and printing up hundreds of thousands of flyers to pass out on the street. The overarching "feel" of the film is almost one of pity as it explores the self-importance of these people who appear to be silly victims of their own beliefs.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  3. truthmod
    Administrator

    Thanks for the review. It does sound kind of sad. I guess it's even sadder that in many people's minds, we're probably included in the same demographic as AJ, Luke, and friends.

    And Luke is a full-blown celebrity of the conspiracy culture now.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  4. emanuel
    Member

    We can't win. Hats off to TPTB.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  5. truthmover
    Administrator

    Bleh...

    Posted 7 years ago #
  6. christs4sale
    Administrator

    I watched this film and I found it hard to watch as well. It was more of a sociological study of this portion of the 9/11 Truth movement and its growth rather than a film that let the subjects prove their case.

    JohnA said:

    Very little was presented to sway the audience to the side of the 'conspiracy theorists.' While their actions were explored (e.g. street activism, DVD distributions, etc etc) very little was FACTUALLY presented to make their case. It was more a psychological study of the people themselves. And the few facts (and i use the term lightly) that were presented were juxtaposed against the incredulous reactions of street people who quite easily blew holes in what they believed.

    This is largely what I got out of it as well. The lack of facts presented in the film is really a reflection of the subjects of the film. Emotion overshadowing facts and literacy. I just saw Religulous with Bill Maher and there are many similarities to the religious fundamentalists in Religulous and the subjects in New World Order. These people come off much closer to people I see on the subway preaching Christian dogma rather than people knowledgeable about the subjects that they spend so much time pursuing.

    Here are some of the bits I noticed while watching this film:

    • They were still using those same boards with terrible and old information from the NY 911 Truth days.

    • Jack McLamb mentions Bo Gritz as a hero (the reactionary, anti-Semitic former Special Forces Major who Rambo was modeled after) and links to American Free Press on his website.

    • Luke mentions William Cooper as a hero. This is the same former ONI member who was a proponent of ET UFOs and that the Zapruder film shows Greer, the limo driver, turning around and shooting JFK. He did die in a suspicious police shoot-out in 2001, but I do not call Ronald Reagan a hero just because he was the victim of a more than suspicious shooting.

    • Luke says that Gary Webb died from two shots to the face with a shotgun. Gary Webb died of two shots to the side of the head with a .38 caliber pistol. I am suspicious of his death, but get the facts right.

    • The film's subjects and the people in the crowds are almost entirely white men, which is representative of this portion of the 9/11 movement.

    With people like these, who needs agents infiltrating the movement. What these people need to understand is that no action big or shocking enough will come close to the power of a literate, well-informed movement capable of thinking critically. It is a downward cycle of poor leaders not giving the right information and approach to those they lead and those being lead not demanding more informed leadership or ideally less leadership. There really needs to be a 9/11 Truth Literacy Campaign to break this cycle and this film is the perfect argument for it.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  7. truthmover
    Administrator

    With people like these, who needs agents infiltrating the movement. What these people need to understand is that no action big or shocking enough will come close to the power of a literate, well-informed movement capable of thinking critically. It is a downward cycle of poor leaders not giving the right information and approach to those they lead and those being lead not demanding more informed leadership or ideally less leadership. There really needs to be a 9/11 Truth Literacy Campaign to break this cycle and this film is the perfect argument for it.

    Yeah. That's what I would have said if I hadn't have woken up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. I'm so fed up. One thing we need to recognize is that many AJ fans are subject to paternalism and authority. Many of them aren't that literate and not that into logical debate.

    In other words, the calm educated approach may not work. This reminds me of the critique that people on the right have of people on the left. We might be more educated, but power isn't about education. Until very recently, the right has won elections with lies and machismo because that works with their intended audience.

    The reason I'm so pissed is that all our calm understanding isn't going to have any impact at all on the cause of this problem. AJ largely appeals to the uneducated. All our efforts at improving literacy would likely do less than simply having another blustery authority figure to replace him with that wasn't a right wing goon.

    But the left doesn't do blustery authority figures as well.

    The things you and John mention about the movie are totally typical and a direct result of the I-won't-criticize-you-if-you-don't-criticize-me attitude we find among these people. There's no logical intervention. No strategic education. No post-game analysis. It's like a bunch of cavemen hooting at the shadows on the cave wall.

    My point is that we can't expect to counter this problem with education. I'm not going to spend a minute undoing AJ's damage. All I care about is the potential for a 9/11 truth movement that totally refutes any connection to all that idiocy, bad strategy, and partisanship.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  8. Arcterus
    Member

    The best thing we could do is to break away from all that and start a coalition of 9/11 truth activists who refute any connection to right wing paranoid bullshit.

    I agree with the paranoid bullshit part. I am, however, mildly conservative, and I don't think that prevents me from having a rational mindset and an intellect equal to anyone else with a more liberal perspective.

    Aside from that, I absolutely agree with you. And even if someone like Jonesy does make a valid point, a hit piece will obviously not put it in. They'll be more than happy to jump on the emotional pleas with the intense, dissuading body language.

    I was briefly part of the WAC here in Seattle, just for the truthaction event on April 11th, but it was more of a hassle than I'd have preferred. The flyers they had available for print all contained erroneous information (especially about the Pentagon), forcing me to make my own to bring (which turned out quite excellently, if I do say so myself). When I actually made it to the event, they were more than happy to promote outright garbage, or worse, even allow people to come up to us and say things like "I agree, I think the Jews did it." Once an apparently homeless guy came up to us and said it was all on computer or something...when nobody tried to distance themselves and continued holding "9/11 was an inside job" signs without any adequate evidence presented worth attracting people with, I stayed roughly in the area but sort of worked on my own. I started giving away a lot more flyers after that.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  9. truthmover
    Administrator

    C'maaaahhhnnnn buddy. I might have been venting, but I'm not gunna start getting all stereotypical on you. But sure, sensitivity required. I specifically did not say "conservative" in order not to connote a broad ideological critique. And I hope you can re-read that sentence with it's intended emphasis. "right wing paranoid bullshit"

    I'm not sure how to describe my ultimate ideological position. I certainly wouldn't find it useful to put myself on one side of some arbitrary line between "us" and "them."

    I went out with WACLA last 11th. Glad I did. We were freeway bannering which meant I didn't have to stress about anyone's rapport with the public and we got a chance to talk. I had a great time. Everyone was friendly and supportive. I'll likely join them next 11th and hold my tongue a bit more as I anticipate having similar concerns as those you express above.

    Many of them are AJ fans. Not all uncritically. There seemed to be disagreement on the way he has handled certain things. But the basic premise beneath that was that overall his impact was positive. I see in that a lack of scope in people's thinking. They aren't in touch with or concerned with how others may view AJ, his positions, or the strategies he promotes. Not enough external consideration. And I don't know how to break through that boundary. Thus the frustration above.

    Confirmation of the problem can be found on the WAC or PrisonPlanet forums where you'll find that there is little strategic debate going on. It has seemed to me that you are allowed to be critical of specific things but not of any core positions or strategies. AJ's the boss.

    I'm fed up with externally obvious and yet internally controversial problems. For some of these concerns there is a right answer. A most productive or least damaging path. And our cultural or ideological understanding does not include accepting fallacy.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  10. Arcterus
    Member

    C'maaaahhhnnnn buddy. I might have been venting, but I'm not gunna start getting all stereotypical on you. But sure, sensitivity required. I specifically did not say "conservative" in order not to connote a broad ideological critique. And I hope you can re-read that sentence with it's intended emphasis. "right wing paranoid bullshit"

    Of course I understand that, I just wanted to clarify that not all right-wingers in the truth movement are over-emphatic nutjobs. I know you wouldn't assume the worst of me solely on my ideology on the political spectrum.

    I went out with WACLA last 11th. Glad I did. We were freeway bannering which meant I didn't have to stress about anyone's rapport with the public and we got a chance to talk. I had a great time. Everyone was friendly and supportive. I'll likely join them next 11th and hold my tongue a bit more as I anticipate having similar concerns as those you express above.

    I've never been involved with WACLA personally but I've talked with a few of their members in the past and if nothing else they seem like they're better than some of the other WAC outlets I've been involved in. By all means, I think WAC is a great opportunity for organizing promotion as long as they aren't driving people away like the WAC up here was. At the same time, I think if an organization is doing things you have problems with, then you can part with the organization and still successfully make an impact. Your documented experiences with NY911truth sums up what I mean perfectly, I think. In 24 hours I'll be in a new home in Jacksonville, Florida, where there isn't a single WAC within at least 20 miles, but that doesn't mean I won't be doing my fair share of street activism and the like.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  11. christs4sale
    Administrator

    Truthmover said:

    As I suggested above, the reason I'm so pissed is that all our calm understanding isn't going to have any impact at all on the cause of this problem. AJ largely appeals to the uneducated. All our efforts at improving literacy would likely do less than simply having another blustery authority figure to replace him with that wasn't a right wing goon.

    But the left doesn't do blustery authority figures as well.

    This is true. This portion of the movement really needs to follow-the-leader and conduct themselves in a really basic manner. To replace AJ with a charismatic authority figure that actually spouts a decent message might be useful to transition them in the right direction. I agree that the left does not do blustery authority figures well, but humor-wise, it shits all over the right from the height of several miles. A comedic figure might be the answer.

    Truthmover said:

    My point is that we can't expect to counter this problem with education. I'm not going to spend a minute undoing AJ and Luke's damage. All I care about is the potential for a 9/11 truth movement that totally refutes any connection to all that idiocy, bad strategy, and partisanship.

    I agree that undoing AJ and Luke's damage is a waste of energy. Unfortunately, if they are visible, then they are going to discredit the issues and people who have made themselves immune to education are completely useless in the long-term to any activist movement because they are too easy to manipulate.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  12. JohnA
    Member

    if i was a conservative i would be very very angry because - basically- the word itself has been hijacked.

    these people we are dealing with are not conservatives. i guess i would put them on the far-right. but i would not call them conservatives.

    there was a time when conservative ideas were a legitimate philosophy. i may not have agreed with it - but i could at least understand what William F. Buckley was saying - and why he was saying it. and - often - i agreed with aspects and elements of what he said. there was some common-sense sober reality behind what the conservatives stood for. i didn't like it or agree with it - but i could at least accept it as a legitimate philosophy.

    today we see a caricature of conservativism that i do NOT see as a legitimate philosophy. Conservative ideas today are based on a foundation of BRAZEN lies and disinformation campaigns. Swiftboating. Character assassination. Media hitmen. lies, lies, lies, lies and - did i mention - more lies? propaganda as a substitute for reasoned discourse. it is THUGGERY of the worst kind - bankrolled by special interests. this always existed in politics - but today it is on steroids and conservativism (is that a real word?) is not a true philosophical position anymore.

    does anyone even really believe that clowns like Sean Hannity believe what they say? Does anyone really believe that Bill O'Reilly gives a rat's ass about a fetus? Does anyone really believe that Rush Limbaugh is a true ideologue?

    It is for this reason that the GOP appears stumped on what their message is. The answer is simple. They do not have one. They simply enjoyed POWER - and now that the emperor has no clothes - and their lies have basically betrayed the middle class - they have no foundation to build on.

    so they turn back to Rush Limbaugh for more hysteria and lies. but that doesn't seem to be working anymore. hmm.. what a conundrum - a political party with no actual foundation of underlying philosophy to build on. hmmm..

    no. if i was a conservative i would be extremely angry because these people have done more damage to the credibility of REAL conservativism that a century of liberal activism.

    Really! Glenn Beck? Really? Really? Glenn Beck? Really? that's the best they can do? Glenn Beck? Really?

    I guess the GOP's high wire act has come to a crashing end. Quick - Send in the clowns.

    Posted 7 years ago #

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