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Treason in America Conference (39 posts)

  1. BrianG
    Member

    Mark, I've seen a patent for a thermal initiator that could be used to ignite thermite:

    section 0002: particularly useful as a through-bulkhead initiator 0030: delay time can be adjusted from 0.5 to more than 90 seconds 0052: device can self-destruct 0055: may be applied as a coating

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2002/0035945.htm...

    Also, if thermite was used simply to heat and weaken the steel, then it might be vulnerable to relatively low-power explosions causing simultaneous failure of multiple columns which might resemble fire-induced failures.

    I'm curious about your information about the leaning building. I've read Chief Hayden's remarks about putting the transit on the SW corner and detecting a bulge between the 10th and 13th floor. Since the famous NYPD aerial photo of the W side seems to show that there is no SW corner between the 10th and 13th floor I've tended to suspect that Hayden's story (and the stories from other FDNY brass alleging structural damage - all of which are mutually contradictory) are a "wink wink" lie to explain why they didn't fight the fire at WTC7 at all, even though they had 3 hose lines run to West Street from 3 19,000 gpm fire boats in the WFC harbor, and had pumper trucks inserted in the lines to relay the presssure. FEMA's report did not give the stories about structural damage any credence at all. They said fire brought down the building, but they couldn't explain how.

    I suspect that FDNY did not fight the fire in WTC7 because they believed that the towers had been brought down with explosives and they suspected that WTC7 was wired with explosives too. Chief Turi's remarks about secondary devices in the towers are well known. Chief Ray Downey, one of the premier collapse experts in the country, expressed the opinion that WTC2 had been brought down with explosives because the collapse was too even to be natural. Demolitions expert Van Romero and structural engineer Ron Hamburger also initially reacted to the collapses by speculating about explosives, so this idea was hardly a loony scenario, but after Bush made his "let us not tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories" remark talk of explosives was verboten.

    The video evidence is that the building was not leaning. The only evidence I've seen about leaning is a video of a guy in a FDNY uniform claiming the building is leaning. What's unsatisfactory about that is that the guy's uniform is absolutely clean, and though he seems to be on the periphery of a FDNY staging area, he seems very furtive. Every time somebody walks behind him he stops talking and he turns around and looks. I would like to know who that man is.

    I agree that the CD evidence may not be the best foot. Some of its advocates are a bit shrill and the movement has really stuck its neck out on the nanothermite claims. But that's what seems to have the momentum. It's too bad that Ruppert and Ahmed and Scott and Thompson have not achieved more notice in the culture. I thought "Press for Truth" would be a slam dunk, and its failure baffles and dismays me. So it goes. If Ruppert released an undated version of Rubicon that was about 1/3 the length that could advance the non-CD side of the movement, but I doubt that's going to happen.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  2. truthmover
    Administrator

    If Ruppert released an undated version of Rubicon that was about 1/3 the length that could advance the non-CD side of the movement, but I doubt that's going to happen.

    Nice thought.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  3. BrianG
    Member

    Oops. UPdated version.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  4. truthmod
    Administrator

    When you get into nanothermites and thermal initiators and temperatures of melting steel, you lose a huge percentage of the public. They're just going to tune out, because it's all gibberish to them and it does make us sound like obsessive, out-of-touch conspiracy theorists. You shouldn't have to understand that stuff (and you don't have to) to understand the rock-solid case for government complicity in 9/11. This does not preclude the importance of researchers and experts investigating these details, but in terms of promotion, and our own grasp of reality, they don't do us any good.

    Additionally, the people you are generally going to reach with the CD argument are those with the lowest ability for broad critical thinking. They may latch on to a little factoid or two and repeat them like gospel, even if they are later proven wrong. The sensational claim, "THEY BLEW UP THE TOWERS!!!" appeals greatly to these kinds of people, because it simplifies a complex topic and let's them feel like they understand it.

    It has been my opinion for many years, that the lopsided, technical type thinking takes us further away from the truth. I've written on this before. The case for complicity has been made many times over. There are still people out there desperately looking for a smoking gun to once and for all convince themselves and everyone else that it's true. They need to get over it. There is no smoking gun that works like that, but there are a thousand smoking guns that point towards the truth.

    My position, for several years, has been that I'm not an expert in demolitions or engineering. I've heard some compelling positions that point towards CD, but I'm not willing to claim that I can know one way or another. I've seen the reaction of skeptics when they hear this--they actually pause and consider that I might not be a fanatical, irrational conspiracy theorist. And my own theory is that IF it was CD, the plan was probably to alienate the people who could see it from the people who couldn't. So, I don't play in to their plan.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  5. BrianG
    Member

    When you get into nanothermites and thermal initiators and temperatures of melting steel, you lose a huge percentage of the public.

    That seems so - except melting steel is easy. Jet fuel burns at 1800 F tops; steel melts at 2800 F. People naturally think there's something special about jet fuel, confuse it with rocket fuel. McVeigh's use of racing fuel in his fertilizer bomb in OK City helped to build this impression. I don't know why nanothermite fails to impress the public -- too far out of everyday experience, I guess. Truthers seem to find it fun. I'm amused when sociologists babble about "X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy" and "differential scanning calorimetry", all breathless for the Gee-Whiz Buck Rogersness of it all.

    You shouldn't have to understand that stuff (and you don't have to) to understand the rock-solid case for government complicity in 9/11.

    It's not complicated. The chips ignite energetically, they're not paint, and their microscopic structure suggests they're an engineered nanomaterial. We all know what an MRI does; we needn't worry about subatomic spin that makes it work. I think the "government complicity" line and the even more destructive "we've proven inside job" line lose the public and make us a cult. Nobody wants to think the world is that fucked up. Few Americans are ready to leap into a world where Batman and Commissioner Gordon plot to make the Riddler take the fall for a bank heist. My own awakening was a process of years, from incompetence theory to LIHOP to controlled demolition -- and I had the advantage of a thorough knowledge of modern German history and the evils of imperialism from the early 70's. Rather than peddling conspiracy theories we need to sell the mysteries, the widows' questions, the shoddy and dishonest investigations, the connections of the alleged hijackers to the intel community, and we need to let people formulate their own questions and come to their own conclusions.

    [With CD] you are generally going to reach ... those with the lowest ability .... They may latch on to a little factoid or two .... [and] feel like they understand it.

    Those whose enthusiasm exceeds their knowledge and communication skills are a constant problem in the movement. Every working group should do workshops in logical fallacies so that everyone learns to spot a false dichotomy, circular reasoning, ad hominem, argument from authority, ad populum, post hoc ergo propter hoc etc. etc. These could be presented in terms of spotting flaws in debunkers' arguments, but the more important effect would be to help our people spot logical flaws in their own arguments and in each others'. Somebody could develop a pdf booklet and a series of multiple choice tests (with an answer sheet that explains why the answers are wrong or right). If this tool were attractively presented, it might even find its way into high schools and colleges. Using 9/11 arguments as examples it could be very subversive while teaching logic.

    The people you are generally going to reach with the CD argument are those with the lowest ability for broad critical thinking.... Lopsided, technical type thinking takes us further away from the truth.

    Different people have different learning styles and different interests. Some people come to 9/11 Truth out of a political agenda -- they hated Bush, or they hate imperialism or the CIA or the gummint, or they're Nazis. Richard Gage came to the CD evidence because he was an architect. I was fascinated by the problem because I used to be a builder, though it took me over a year before I could take CD seriously. Some folks want to focus on the ISI, or on Florida, or Yemen or San Diego. Fine. CD interests me and I would do it for truth regardless of its political utility. And I think it has enormous potential.

    The science of the collapses is where the biggest and most blatant lies are. Now maybe I'm wrong; maybe there aren't obvious violations of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics and Newton's 3rd Law and the Law of the Conservation of Angular Momentum that anybody can see in 45 seconds of video. Maybe the hundreds of thousands of engineers and college professors and engineering students who refuse to look at the issue are right and I'm an idiot and there's nothing there. Why then will not one of them do me the favor of showing me wrong so I can give up this CD stuff get on with my life? Emailing hundreds of college professors of engineering and physics to inform them when Richard Gage was appearing on their campuses, I got one technical response. It cited the Popular Mechanics book for authority and gave no indication that the guy had ever even looked at the NIST report. If I were an engineering professor and I thought Richard Gage was a con man traveling around the world corrupting impressionable young minds, I would get together with some of my buddies and go down to see his presentation with the intention of asking him devastating and humiliating questions after. And then I would write the whole thing up for The Nation or Atlantic or Scientific American or Skeptic. Nobody ever does this. Why not? All we get is silence.

    The big chill surrounding the big lie is demonstrated by the reception of the FEMA report and the NIST report. Dr. Thomas Eagar's zipper/pancake collapse theory was adopted by the FEMA report and became the conventional wisdom despite obvious shortcomings: collapse symmetry requires that entire floor unzipped within a tenth of a second, the zipper mechanism is foiled by the lateral cross trusses designed to spread out those loads, and the theory requires that perimeter-side truss "clips" be so flimsy that the floors peel off the columns, and yet the core side clips must be tenacious enough that falling floors pull down the core. It never made any sense, but if any engineers aside from Jeff King spoke out about it, I never heard of it. So along comes NIST in 2005, and completely reverses the zipper/pancake theory. Now the truss clips are so freaking strong that saggy floors pull the columns down. And there's no comment in the engineering community, no controversy, no one will defend the FEMA theory, and now presumably no one will even admit that he was ever dumb enough to believe what was conventional wisdom for three years.

    We have 1,100 architects and engineers for 9/11 truth now. How many architects and engineers will publicly express confidence in the NIST report? Just a handful, and almost all of them either worked on the NIST report themselves, or their firms have contracts with NIST. The thing about science is that you don't need a political agenda. All you need is to honestly look at the evidence, and when the shift in the engineering community's conventional wisdom comes, it will come fast. I think there are tens of thousands of college professors and engineers walking around with severe cases of suppressed cognitive dissonance, and I aim to make them aware of it.

    There are still people out there desperately looking for a smoking gun to once and for all convince themselves and everyone else that it's true.

    Many of them are driven by a wish for personal fame, and when these wishes are frustrated some of them get ugly, underhanded, and dishonest.

    I'm not willing to claim that I can know one way or another.

    You're not willing to claim that about CD, but you're willing to claim that about government complicity. I think that's a mistake. I think we need to give people information and invite them to think for themselves, not tell them what to think.

    I've seen the reaction of skeptics when they hear this--they actually pause and consider that I might not be a fanatical, irrational conspiracy theorist.

    I see exactly the same reaction, which is why I avoid carny claims and stick to provable facts: the widows' unanswered questions; foreknowledge of the attacks; Zelikow's dishonesty in the 9/11 report; and the failings of the NIST reports -- their dishonesty, unbelievability, incomplete nature; and the fact that by cutting off the report at the moment of collapse initiation they dodge all the mysteries of the "collapse": speed, symmetry, totality, the complete pulverization of the concrete and the steel floor pans, and the presence of molten iron in the rubble.

    I don't claim I know, and I wish people would give up the shrill claims of "incontrovertible proof" that serve only to make us feel overconfident while we go around turning the public off. We need to model ourselves after the honest skeptical scientists and the fearless and rigorous journalists that this country so desperately needs in these times.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  6. NicholasLevis
    Member

    BrianG, very thoughtful comments, even if I am definitely not of the demolitions school, and not only agnostic, but largely apathetic to the question. It's secondary, the answer to it will come out because the fight for disclosure is won on a different battlefield, and not vice-versa. Let Jones et al. do their research and conduct that debate among the scientists, but to make it the centerpiece of a political discourse trying to counter the cover-up is counter-productive for many reasons, not least because it forces 9/11 truth into an all-or-nothing question. Then again, I'm an exotic who considers believers in the full official story who nevertheless join in fighting for disclosure and demanding answers to be allies, not foes or "gatekeepers."

    I wish everyone who was into the demolitions-only side were as thoughtful.

    However, I have to question this:

    "Now maybe I'm wrong; maybe there aren't obvious violations of... the Law of the Conservation of Angular Momentum that anybody can see in 45 seconds of video."

    Speaking only to angular momentum, I assume you are referring to the South Tower top part tipping, an issue I considered carefully, albeit some years ago. What I see in the videos is that angular momentum is conserved. It looks to me like the top continues to tip in the direction it had started to tip in, even as it also falls and begins to come apart in mid air. In other words, I see the top section toppling over, as one would expect. This is obscured in some angles by the dust. I also know that the headstone from the 110th floor landed (and was found, by a pile worker I have met) about where you would expect: 400 feet from the South Tower at the corner of Liberty and Church. Most of the top section was scattered in the area from the former wall to that corner, something you can also make out in some of the available overhead pictures.

    A map: http://www.stagedterror.com/images/WTC%20Complex.j...

    Posted 14 years ago #
  7. truthmod
    Administrator

    I'm not willing to claim that I can know one way or another.

    You're not willing to claim that about CD, but you're willing to claim that about government complicity. I think that's a mistake. I think we need to give people information and invite them to think for themselves, not tell them what to think.

    There is a big difference between what we claim to each other vs. what we promote to the public. For years, what I've said while promoting 9/11 awareness is that there is a lot of evidence that points towards government complicity on some level.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  8. JohnA
    Member

    I think there has always been pressure within the movement to pledge loyalty to one particular theory or another. I can remember in the earliest days of NY911Truth when other ‘activists’ started referring to me as a ‘limited-hangout’ advocate – simply because I would not advocate a strict MIHOP (made it happen on purpose) position. If I heard the term “hangout’ one more time I was going to vomit.

    Personally – it is my opinion - that those activists who took such inflexible absolutist positions – were proven to be disruptors.

    And I think the same nonsense goes on today. In fact – they’ve incorporated. They’ve created a BRAND. And in the public’s eyes we are now all forced to labor under the yoke of that label.

    Get this – it does not MATTER if CD is real or not. I mean – I look at this thread that, yet again, seeks to drag us all through some ridiculously theoretical discussion about the tipping of the tower – and I want to scream with frustration.

    Its almost a decade now I’ve watched message board after message board after message board swamped with densely written posts about CD and I wonder – is this helping or hurting?

    Get this – it does not MATTER if CD is real or not The PROBLEM is multifaceted and nuanced. The PROBLEM is public relations – not physics. The PROBLEM is credibility – not structural engineering. The PROBLEM is perception – not the melting point of steel. And all the foot stomping and adolescent claims of ‘indisputable evidence that any child can understand’ will not change these simple self-evident truths.

    And that leaves us with three problematic groups –

    Group 1 - those who are either too stupid or too stubborn to understand this; and

    Group 2 – those who pretend to belong to Group 1, simply to discredit us; and

    Group 3 – those in the media who seek to use both Groups 1 and 2 to discredit us.

    What group does Jesse Ventura belong to? The man has a “Conspiracy ” television show that lumps 9/11 in with “global warming is a hoax” and “HAARP.” Does he do us a service – or an injustice? Is it intentional - or unintentional? Who cares – he sucks.

    Alex Jones lumps us in with the birther movement. Real or Memorex? Who cares – he sucks.

    Wtcdemolitions.com lumps us in with holocaust deniers. Real Truther or Real Plant? Who cares – he sucks.

    Richard Gage – not bad actually. He placed this discussion in the arena in which it belongs – among the scientific community. Maybe some of us should stop chasing Amy Goodman – claiming the science is settled - and start chasing the scientific community – to once and for all settle it.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  9. mark
    Member

    Every engineering school in the world has looked at the WTC collapses, which carries a little more weight than a shopping mall designer who came late to the issue (Mr. Gage).

    The claim that

    "The only evidence I've seen about leaning is a video of a guy in a FDNY uniform claiming the building is leaning."

    is easily disproved, but it requires looking beyond so-called truth websites.

    It is likely that whoever was flying the planes was trying to knock the towers into each other, fortunately they stood up long enough for most of the people below the impacts to escape.

    Also, the claim that there were some problems with the way the South Tower fell over have long since been debunked, albeit by supporters of the surprise attack paradigm (who are correct on the collapse but not the big picture behind 9/11 complicity). It's a great fake debate paralleling the Pentagon no plane nonsense - either you believe in Rumsfeld's missile hoax and therefore a conspiracy, or you realize the plane hit and therefore no conspiracy (ignoring the fact that the plane hit AND they allowed/enabled the attacks to happen).

    Posted 14 years ago #
  10. christs4sale
    Administrator

    Get this – it does not MATTER if CD is real or not. I mean – I look at this thread that, yet again, seeks to drag us all through some ridiculously theoretical discussion about the tipping of the tower – and I want to scream with frustration.

    Its almost a decade now I’ve watched message board after message board after message board swamped with densely written posts about CD and I wonder – is this helping or hurting?

    Get this – it does not MATTER if CD is real or not The PROBLEM is multifaceted and nuanced. The PROBLEM is public relations – not physics. The PROBLEM is credibility – not structural engineering. The PROBLEM is perception – not the melting point of steel. And all the foot stomping and adolescent claims of ‘indisputable evidence that any child can understand’ will not change these simple self-evident truths.

    I agree completely. Although I am rarely around Truther-types anymore, I was recently in a situation where I was in a discussion with someone I would consider a Truther and we were discussing John Judge and this guy began attacking John because of his position on controlled demolition. I said that I do not feel that I know what the collapses were or were not, but that I do not care what they were and that I feel that it impacts negatively on the 9/11 accountability issue when the general, layperson population of any sort of 9/11 movement take the collapse of the WTC on as their main issue. See NYCCAN for a perfect example of what not to do.

    What group does Jesse Ventura belong to? The man has a “Conspiracy ” television show that lumps 9/11 in with “global warming is a hoax” and “HAARP.” Does he do us a service – or an injustice? Is it intentional - or unintentional? Who cares – he sucks.

    I actually met Jesse Ventura recently at a book signing. My only purpose was to pass on some decent information to him. I have no idea how much effect it will have. Probably not much. After talking with him for a few minutes, it was clear to me that he is just very naive and has no sense for disinformation and who not to affiliate with. His book is a mix of some reasonable information and the familiar Birch Society nonsense. I would say that he is definitely Group 1.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  11. JohnA
    Member

    After talking with him for a few minutes, it was clear to me that he is just very naive and has no sense for disinformation and who not to affiliate with.

    This was my impression of Les Jamieson as well.

    useful idiots or talented actors?

    we'll probably never know

    Posted 14 years ago #
  12. mark
    Member

    John Judge is adamantly against the demolition theories. I'd stack anything that he's written on 9/11 against anything from any demolition claim. He also had the courage to point out in 2002 that the no plane stuff was easily debunked disinformation, but suffered a lot of vitrolic attacks from juvenile people who couldn't admit they might have made a mistake while seeking "the truth." The counterattack from the media afterwards could have been largely prevented if the truth movement had taken John's advice to avoid this trap. If you delve into "deep politics" and claim not to have made a mistake, that in itself is a mistake. It's healthy to admit that and move on.

    http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/inde...

    "Just because someone says the government is lying does not mean they are telling the truth." -- John Judge

    Posted 14 years ago #
  13. Victronix
    Member

    Every engineering school in the world has looked at the WTC collapses

    Everyone all over the world looked at the collapses on 9/11. But few continued to look at them very closely after that because it was an extremely negative and traumatic event. And within days, weeks and months, slick documentaries were put out to "explain" everything. False theories were put forth and later debunked.

    But every engineering school in the world has not actually analyzed the events. In fact, it would be impossible for them to do a serious analysis of the final reports since the computer data that NIST used to reach it's conclusions has never been released.

    Of those who have written papers analyzing the collapses using engineering methods, there are probably less than 20.

    A good exercise in seeing the hard data on what engineers support potential CD, go to this page:

    http://www.ae911truth.org/supporters.php?g=ENGSONLY

    and do a page search of the word "structural". There are quite a few people who are structural engineers or who are civil engineers with structural experience.

    The PROBLEM is public relations – not physics.

    I don't think it's either or. Both are meaningful.

    Unfortunately, I believe that if we took away all mention of CD, all Pentagon claims, and all other disinformation claims, I don't think the media would suddenly rush out to hear from those who can debunk the official story. It's much more than those things standing in the way. As you know . . .

    It's an information war, so it's not as simple as just stripping away some parts and then things will suddenly all work out.

    And have you noticed that AE911 now has over 7000 supporters, on top of the now 1131 architectural and engineering professionals?

    That's not nothing.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  14. Victronix
    Member

    If you delve into "deep politics"

    Speaking of which, I thought it was hilarious to see Jim Marrs is going to be at that DP event in Santa Cruz . . .

    Marrs has been a featured speaker at a number of national conferences including the annual International UFO Congress[3] and the annual Gulf Breeze UFO Conference,[4] but he also speaks at local conferences, such as Conspiracy Con[5] and The Bay Area UFO Expo.[6] Beginning in 2000, he began teaching a course on UFOs at the University of Texas at Arlington. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Marrs

    What's with that?

    I guess people like to be entertained.

    Posted 14 years ago #

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