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Enough Is Enough (144 posts)

  1. Victronix
    Member

    Meetings can be draining, it's true, and they require some amount of leadership, moderation and thought and planning. Then there's always someone who becomes impossible to cope with and the emotional melt-downs happen. But then too, I have friends now that I didn't have before from event planning and organizing. One thing that can also be helpful is to sometimes just have a dinner party. Forget the meetings and just relax. Janette Mackinlay over here has them every now and then and everyone looks forward to those, all beliefs are set aside for awhile and people just talk and enjoy the view (overlooking the bay). It's important to recharge. I can imagine that getting out in the streets as often as you do can be very draining, even as it is inspirational and educational.

    It helps too when people you are working with closely are respectful and compassionate.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  2. jan
    Member

    Thanks for the reference to the name response. I meant to mention that sweetsacrfice makes excellent points about the meme 9/11 Truth that have been echoed by others lately.

    A target market can be as diverse as the American public or as uniform as the Vanity Fair audience of affluent women: http://www.condenastmediakit.com/vf/circulation.cf...

    I think something like the 9/11 Justice Campaign or the 9/11 Constitution and Justice Campaign implies a new approach and an urgency.

    Americans have honest, intense differences of opinions and values on other issues but I have faith that we could unite our efforts around restoring the Constitution. One creative possibility could be for a leading organization to call for an urgent national meeting for Americans of goodwill, to simply put aside other differences at this critical, post 9-11 time for the crisis of the US Constitution. We have all been subject to the mega media propaganda spin, but when we meet individually, it is easy to communicate, learn, and interact.

    (caveat: posted by a concerned American citizen, leaning neither right nor left)

    Posted 16 years ago #
  3. Diane
    Member

    jan wrote:

    I believe that in 2005 the national 9-11 truth movement was targeted for "public relations destruction", directly due to the successes of the 2004-2005 protest action movement of the National 9-11 Visibility Project and 911Truth.org. The combination of the rise of networking among dedicated leaders and activists, 9-11 protest attendees who looked like middle America and the display of attractive, non-threatening movement signage had potential to exponentially grow the movement with increased allies and mainstream attention and public sympathy.

    Complicit media has repeatedly portrayed the 911 truth movement as a big extreme tent embracing of screwball theories and full of hostility.

    Screwball theories and loads of hostility can be found in nearly ALL political movements, and in many other kinds of group endeavors as well. Perhaps we should put together a collection of extreme screwball quotes from neo-cons?

    Agreed that it's important to consider ways we can improve our public image and appear less "screwball." However, as the history of the GLBT rights movement has shown, there is also such a thing as too much concern about public image. More about that in a future post. For now I'll just say that too much emphasis on respectability can result in attempts to force the movement into a Procrustean bed, beyond simply promoting careful and critical thought. For example, I heard that one of We Are Change's gripes against Les is his involvement in the Urantia religion, and I've also heard of some people attacking Steven Jones for his Mormon beliefs. In my opinion, we should not worry about someone's religion except insofar as it may impair the person's ability to think critically about 9/11-related issues or inspire the person to espouse loony politics. Trying to expel people (or at least leaders) from the movement on account of their religion would be analoguus to N.O.W. purging lesbians back in 1970 on the grounds that open lesbians were an embarrassment to the feminist movement. Besides being a capitulation to bigotry, too much conformism for the sake of mainstream respectability could easily backfire and be used to make the 9/11 Truth movement look like a cult.

    So, I hope you don't want us ALL to "look like middle America." It would be just as well for us to look like a cross-section of America, including but not limited to folks who look like "middle America."

    IMO, one goal of this (cointelpro) campaign has been to completely alienate independent women away from involvement in the 9-11 truth issue. (Fetzer's personality was very alienating to women).

    Yep, Fetzer comes across as an obnoxious personality. But do you really think that most women would be alienated from an entire movement by just one man's personality? I suspect that there are deeper reasons for the high male-to-female ratio in the 9/11 Truth movement, though I don't offhand know what those reasons are. One reason might be the emphasis on technical matters, which are likely to appeal to only a minority of women. Perhaps if there were more emphasis on things like the apparent stand-down, or on relevant apparent government lies, more women might relate.

    (If the apparent stand-down is emphasized, we should be prepared to provide sound documentation of whatever the standard operating procedures were at that time. Otherwise we are vulnerable to the common accusation that we assume the government to have been more competent than it actually was.)

    Finally, changing the bright signage of the original movement to black signs was a significant change that encouraged public perception of the movement as an extreme subculture.

    I had assumed that the color black, in the context of the 9/11 Truth movement, symbolized mourning, or something like that. But it would probably be good to have a wider variety of colors. Too much of any one color could be used to make us look like a cult.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  4. Hmm, Diane, i'm not saying if a there's a group that wants to follow a certain ideology, that they don't have a right to form a group that takes on 9/11, but..

    Even if that group existed before 9/11, it wouldn't have solved that problem. In a sense, ny911truth tried to be that, and it didn't help. We needed everyone together and we needed a real event, not as some have put..a circus. The levels of deciet leading up to this were awful.

    The small group i work with, attended, and well prior to the event encouraged people to join for the truth and truth alone. We are small, though, like i said. I think the group here was pretty honest with the strike. They didn't try to rope everyone in under one narrow agenda, though i do believe it could have been more 9/11 focused. Still, the time was more then due for something like this to start to happen. I wonder how that turned out. I guess it's hard to tell. Obviously it didn't stop the world, but it needed to start somewhere. Anyway..i wanted to share this:

    (this is from a prisonplanet article titled "Despite Heavy Rains, Truth Movement Strong ". The title itself is dishonest, as it only rained hard for about 20 minutes the whole day, and that wasn't till after noon. But this is the crime of crimes, right here..)

    "Eventually, as our numbers swelled, the police politely barricaded us to prevent impedance to and from the train station. Some took this as a violation of our rights, and mocked the police officers, but most realized the rational behind the barricades, and graciously complied. Even Alex Jones, while being interviewed by Discovery Channel, seemed to have no problem with the barrier, as he politely asked our gathering to backup so that they could be constructed. The vigil was concluded at noon, and we all anxiously awaited the word to start our march towards building number seven."

    Here we have a promotion of police barricading people in. Now, as i'm sure Jules and (i forget the other guys name, sorry) would say, there was an awful lot of room between the PATH subway and the barricade. My estimation is that it was about 50 feet. Ironically, according signs hanging around the station, it said the station was closed for the day. Still there was some volume of people coming in and out, hardly your Times Square scene, though. 50 feet was excessive to say the least. They were just as unkind to people standing off on either side, as well. It got to the point where if someone even paused to take a picture, the cops would shoo them off. Secondly, the police were far from polite the whole day. They were extremely rude at times, and several people had to tell them off about their lack of "cpr". They wouldn't allow people to stand under the tarp when it poured(even family members) infront of the PATH Station, or merely at its sides, nor would they allow a group of people to stand under a metal overhang by an elevator for long during this time either. The excuse was "you're getting in the way", of course, as always. So much for courtesy and consideration.

    This article, and especially this portion, do a clever job. They okay the police state we have been fighting, tell people to just take it(i guess we can do the same if the trains come rolling in, too!), and of course..make Alex Jones the decider on what is and isn't okay for the police state to do. Thanks Alex, i don't know what i would do without you.

    Honestly this is as blatant and disgusting as the rest of their behavior, so i shouldn't be surprised, but it's just more evidence of what i'm saying here. It's absurd, and putting it kindly is gone. We aren't supposed to have any barriers, period, and here we are being told to welcome them without a word, the police will protect us in the end. The end..is not looking good. be well - john

    Last word: politely and barricaded..do not go together.

    Article:

    http://prisonplanet.com/articles/september2007/120...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  5. Victronix
    Member

    Thanks for the detailed report. Often it's hard to call what the right move could have been. A lot of times the slightest response to police is just what they are for for to explode on the crowd and create the "anarchists destroy stuff" headline, but sometimes those events can also help grow a movement or make a headline when there would have been none. I'll be interested to hear more.

    They okay the police state we have been fighting, tell people to just take it . . . and of course..make Alex Jones the decider on what is and isn't okay for the police state to do.

    This is an obvious problem, if not a set-up, because his ego is deeply involved, being a media person. It's like having Geraldo decide. Give me a break.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  6. Diane
    Member

    sweetsacrifice wrote:

    50 feet was excessive to say the least.

    The Port Authority has long had a rule forbidding literature distribution, etc., within some particular distance (50 feet, if I'm not mistaken) of the fence. As I understood it, one of the purposes of the barricades was to ensure that we adhered to that rule.

    If you feel that the rule is unjust and would like to organize a civil disobedience action against it, that would be fine in my opinion. However, civil disobedience actions, both to have a reasonable chance of success and to minimize harm to participants, need to be organized and planned, with members trained in advance and in agreement on how to deal with various contingencies. See, for example, the following:

    ACT-UP Civil Disobedience Manual http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/CDind...

    In my opinion, civil disobedience should NOT be something that individuals just do spontaneously, on their own, at an event intended to be a law-abiding protest. That just puts other participants in danger against their will.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  7. Diane
    Member

    Black T-shirts

    I wrote earlier:

    I had assumed that the color black, in the context of the 9/11 Truth movement, symbolized mourning, or something like that. But it would probably be good to have a wider variety of colors. Too much of any one color could be used to make us look like a cult.

    However, on second thought:

    Looking again at the ACT-UP website, I'm reminded that ACT-UP is another group noted for wearing black T-shirts (or sometimes just lots of black on white), and for making heavy use of the color black generally, in their signage and elsewhere. Doesn't seem to have hurt them at all. On the contrary, it helps give them the distinctive air of solemnity which is one of ACT-UP's trademarks. And, although ACT-UP has not been 100% successful, they've won quite a few political battles.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  8. From "9/11 Truth" to possibly "9/11 Awareness"

    I'm not necessarily hoping for a new, legitimate investigation of 9/11. It doesn't seem probable that directing attention toward governmental officials will generate the movement that we hope for. Directing attention toward officials does not lead to paradigm shift. Trying to persuade others to 9/11 Truth leads to control issues and plenty of hate and bitterness and hypocrisy, whereupon we end up becoming a symptom of the Orwellian proposals which we despise.

    Awareness allows people to configure their own truths, which limits the wish for outer control. Truth as a starting point is exclusive and is prone to issues of respectability. Awareness tends to be prone to expansion and balance.

    The message has been, "Be plagued by 9/11", not only from the obvious world leaders, but in a strange way, by the 9/11 Truth movement. This is a total, duplicitous version of awareness.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  9. You may be correct regarding the literature rule, Diane, but if i'm correct there was a case on this back a couple years, involving 4 members of a group called "no police state coalition". The group won. But, if nothing else, this was still inexcuseable even within their (unjust)law, sinse most people weren't even giving out literature. Additionally, they were enforcing it against people who had merely come to visit the memorial. So i have to reject that notion, if they tried to pass it off. And odds are you are on it, that is probably at least partially what they tried to pass off.

    Additional note:

    There were some people giving out materials, a small amount of people, but still, who were just walking around. They carried on throughout the day.

    I don't believe it would have been civil disobedience for people to stay outside of the barricades. In a sense, yes, but this isn't like a sit down in the middle of a street or infront of the doors of congress, you know what i mean? This was walking, standing, taking photographs, ect, on public property. People should not have complied, and i am sure they only did so because their "leaders" told them to. Remember, no one did this last year. Everyone walked around and spoke with people, gave out dvd's and fliers, ect. This was a sharp and ineffective(putting it way too kindly) change. Effective for the establishment only.

    Regarding Civil Disobedience, i think any individual should do as they feel is neccessary to free themselves and the people of the state. Whether i wish to join the person or not, i support their right to make that decision. Hopefully the individual is responsible. Sometimes people have to do something on their own or it never gets started. You can't look around and wait for someone to take that first step. Again, i don't believe staying outside of a "free speech zone" is civil disobedience. It's merely doing what everyone else does on a normal basis, walk around the street where they like(Although even that is starting to see restrictions). I also think it's called resisting unlawful arrest. Because, in essence, you are under arrest while you are at the protest if you stay in the cage. Your motion, outreach, and ability to go to and fro the event are restricted...simply because you wish to protest. Arrest = detainment for an action taken. So it's a fair comparison.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  10. 9/11 Awareness

    It's interesting what you say about awareness.

    I do believe we need to go after the "leaders", though when i say that i talk much deeper then bush/cheney, but i think you hit something on the head. As someone i work with puts it, we have work as deprogrammers.

    My question about 9/11 awareness is, do you think it might read off to someone initially as "oh god not another 'you better remember terror' phrase"? What do you think?

    Posted 16 years ago #
  11. I know i'm posting alot on this one, forgive me another one. I just discovered this post on a Change forum.

    The poster pretty much rips them for the weekend. There are some pretty disturbing additional claims in there. Here's the kicker though. This person claims Change is saying they didn't break even, and therefore the first responders won't be getting money. Don't know if this is true, but this really wouldn't surprise me. And the behavioral descriptions are head on, so this person seems to have been an observer. I screensaved it, just in case it's taken down, but here's the link:

    http://forum.wearechange.org/YaBB.pl?num=118974847...

    On a side note, there has been discussion about the shirts. The individual harped on the shirts and the smoking towers on them. I have to agree, that was pretty bad too.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  12. truthmod
    Administrator

    Thanks sweetsacrifice for continuing to follow this..

    Second the attitudes. Luke,I have known you for a year and you have turned into a media whore.You and Tom Foti both.Too popular to talk to anyone not important enough to be on camera.Tom ..I stood up for you always . Even on 911 this year people asked disturbing questions about you and i stood up in your defense. But when i lost my way to the church you wouldnt even pick up the phone to tell me how to get there or look me in the face when i sat next to you.You guys screwed over cosmos and Gary Franchie when they came thousands of miles away to speak.

    I've been hearing a lot of complaints like this recently. Also, it seems like more and more people are starting to realize that Alex Jones is USING 9/11 truth to further his ideological agenda (Ron Paul, etc.) and that there is quite a cult of personality and a lot of egotism going around with these people.

    Re: 9/11 Awareness

    I really do like this angle better than truth, but 9/11 truth is just so catchy. Maybe Awareness=Truth and we just need to push this idea more prominently. Do people think the name/label "9/11 Truth" turns outsiders off? I suppose it could sometimes. I'd like to actually see a comprehensive list of what turns people off and reasons why people do not accept or become involved in 9/11 truth...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  13. NicholasLevis
    Member

    DAMN. DON'T READ THAT, READ THIS - I made some changes within 10 minutes but the forum tells me the post is now too old to edit.

    WELL HERE IT IS AGAIN:

    Gimme a break on the semantics people - for the general phenomenon, no alternative on earth is at this point going to supplant "9/11 skeptics" (best and neutral - never concede this term to the official story believers), "9/11 truth" (a recognizable brand, for better or worse), "truth and justice" (for the push to get a real investigation) and "9/11 conspiracy" (the attack term). These words are the established terms, and they have a power that accountability (important as it is) and a specificity that "community" (which is what?) and the other alternatives on display here are not going to match.

    And what does it matter?

    Pick any name you like for a group, of course - I think TruthMove's pretty good.

    But you want to change this mess, then focus on personnel and program. With all these submarine people who start out reasonable and later announce they're Jesus or Elvis and they see the pod or the Jews or whatever, it's become obvious that personnel is number one. Program will be perfectly obvious, as it always has been - once serious people once again take the fore.

    And Zogby poll shows majority this, a dead movement that - still the American public is a perpetual blank slate. This is why the media need to serve up such a steady series of shocks and hysterias, all is forgotten on a maximum 90-day cycle. This means there can always be a new beginning.

    The loose self-cannibalizing coalition of loose info artists have banded and branded and discredited and repeated themselves ad infinitum very effectively, as a group, as a culture - it's a favor to those who want a serious and new approach that all the idiots and salesfolk got all the publicity this year. If you can find a new direction to strike out in, the Fetzers and Joneses will be left trying to figure out how to catch up.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  14. Victronix
    Member

    I read on Eric H's site that Ron Paul has Alex Jones listed to be his FCC Commissioner or something.

    Regarding Civil Disobedience, i think any individual should do as they feel is neccessary to free themselves and the people of the state.

    When I looked at the videos -- great btw -- I could see how really toned down, in a way, and somber the atmosphere was, and I could imagine that if someone did CD there it wouldn't be a make it or break it situation, and could be freeing. Personally I don't try to get arrested because I think that unless you have a lot of TV cameras on you, or a few hundred others doing it also, you pay such a high price in your own life, financially, emotionally, taken out of the scene, etc., and then you have a record on top of that, that for me it isn't worth it. Others it is. A friend of mine recently passed away however, who had been arrested many hundreds of times and changed the world with his activism, but it helps to have white hair and look like Jimmy Stewart! He would hang a sign around his neck saying "Doing my patriotic duty for the day." A great guy.

    personnel is number one.

    Indeed. Keeping that number limited is key also. People who have ego issues can be picked off when disinfo gives them the mic they know they've always deserved. You start off as one group, you end up as another.

    I agree on the issue of the name not being such an issue, but I know Jan has a good perception of some of this too that I don't. One answer is to add to the black t-shirts -- start a new color a new image, let the black on fade away or remain with the younger generation. This site's designer does amazing work and could make something great, I would imagine.

    I found the Zogby poll to be depressing and poorly worded. There were problems I noticed with the leading manner of some of the questions and inconsistencies amongst the format of the questions. Anyone know who wrote them? They should be the same set of questions every year.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  15. In regards to 9/11 awareness, hopefully there is no "you better remember the terror". We may be at a point in which 9/11 can be addressed without the terror. In other words, we can present an approach which is free of the fear of suffering, free of the cynicism of being able to go through suffering with levity.

    Talking with people on the streets about 9/11 I find is usually about addressing defense mechanisms, and partially trying not to enable those. We cannot essentially deprogram anybody, but we can offer them a process of awareness which is absent of fear, shame, and cynicism. We cannot get to truth if there is no inclination for truth. And we cannot get to the truth if we ourselves are placing our own avoidance of our own issues upon those we are trying to communicate with.

    We've noticed that this movement has turned to hype. In an immediate level, hype garners easy (similar) attention. It also allows the members of this movement to aggrandize their image from the potential realm of total marginalization, to one of cheered hero or notorious reactionary. But personal inflation and distraction is the main method for a lack of awareness about the events of 9/11, and well, every other issue which is plagued with fear. We end up acting similarly to the paradigm of dishonesty which we claimed to disavow.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  16. NicholasLevis
    Member

    By the way, everyone should save the Monster Trucks audio before those idiots pull it off their site. It's an important historical document and in its way very incriminating to anyone who has half a brain. It says that whoever made that audio are not serious people, and they don't give a shit about truth, justice, building a movement, or anything.

    Um, how does one do that, by the way?

    Posted 16 years ago #
  17. jan
    Member

    It is great to see so many insightful and intelligent comments.

    Seems to me that a marketing decision should be made to focus on the demographics who have the most likely ability to successfully effect rapid change.

    The recent 911truth poll indicates that the under 35 crowd has a much higher skepticism rate than those between 35-54. While younger Americans will certainly be in the position to significantly effect change in the future, what real political power do they have currently?

    In reality, the baby boomer age bracket has both the highest likelihood to be positively influenced (by facts/science) and the political power to effect rapid change. One catch could be that becoming educated, exposing and beginning to repair the damage from 9/11 is a huge responsibility of this generation.

    Regarding Diane's comments on creating a 'left' wing of the 911 movement...

    I would not be interested in joining a 'right' 911 truth organization any more than I would be in joining a 'left' 911 truth organization. I have many beloved family and friends who 'lean right' and also family and friends who 'lean left'. The repercussions to America surrounding 9/11 are issues that transcends all others.

    At this critical point in time in America's history, political labels are a method used to further divide Americans towards each other and give misguided energy to a citizen's illusion of having a right/left domestic enemy. If Americans are ever able to cross party lines and start working together for the very survival of the United States, one immediate result would be that current influences in the system would not survive.

    Jan Hoyer

    Posted 16 years ago #
  18. truthmod
    Administrator

    Nick--

    By the way, everyone should save the Monster Trucks audio before those idiots pull it off their site.

    http://www.truthmove.org/audio/change.aif

    Jan--

    Thanks so much for your experienced opinions. I was just getting involved in the movement in 2004 and was excited by the large conferences and proliferation of 9/11 truth signs (your work) during the RNC. In so many ways it feels like we've gone backward since then.

    I think we need aggressive outreach to the anti-war crowd and existing organizations like World Can't Wait. Additionally, creating tasteful, effective, and responsible promotional materials is very important. Right now, we're being overrun with blackshirts, infowars imagery/audio/video and aggressive confrontational stunts. We must always keep in mind how 9/11 truth appears to the general public...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  19. redhed718
    Member

    I am the poster of the article mentioned by sweetsacrifice on the wearechange forums.My experience comes as a former member of ny911truth and as a former founding member of wearechange.I have known Luke and Tom Foti for over a year now personally.And i am personally sick of watching people profit if not financially by their own needs of media attention on the backs of first responders in 9 11 truth.Luke will not answer my phonecalls to discuss his actions face to face(or phone to phone) and i will not rest until i am satisfied with how he plans on compensating for his actions this weekends. I have said it many times. This action is not about any of us. Its about the victims,first responders and family members. Its takes alot more to be an activist than standing behind luke and alex jones screaming and chanting. It takes real action. And i ask everyone to contact John at the feel good foundation personally make sure thier contributions are accounted for and to offer services personally to those in need. My apologies to Dylan for using his name in my post. I know he truly means well and i will remove his name by request.Please go to the wearechange forums and add your thoughts to my post. 48 reads and no replies. I must have shaken some people into reality over there.WE all need to let them know how we feel.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  20. JonGold
    Member

    Can someone please explain briefly what happened this weekend? I only went Sunday to support the families (Bob McIlvaine), and responders. Aside from the Tarpley accusations. I've been glancing at the comments, and admittedly, I don't know what to do anymore. The "movement" seems to have been "hijacked" as it were. Some days I feel like throwing in the towel. I know there are some people out there doing some good, but I am having such a hard time trusting ANYONE in this "movement."

    It used to be about supporting the 9/11 families, supporting the 9/11 first responders, asking questions, and demanding answers. There used to be an unspoken "rule" that you promote the best information possible, and do your very best not to come across as "crazy."

    Now it's WTC7 24/6.5 leaving a half day for everything else having to do with 9/11 (and if it doesn't coincide with CD, you are chastised/ridiculed/attacked), and a touch of fear mongering (OMG... "false flag attack imminent.") I know people are tired of hearing this from me, but this is not the "Controlled Demolition Movement." Whether it took place or not (I don't know), the idea to a lot of people still comes across as "crazy" yet it's the first thing being promoted now by 99% of the "movement." I feel like to even participate, you have to believe that the towers, and building 7 were brought down by Controlled Demolition. Otherwise, you are considered "disinfo."

    I remember back in the day when I first "joined" this "movement" officially. I think it was June 2004 when I saw 9/11 CitizensWatch.org on C-SPAN. I had already spent a good year 1/2 or so researching, contacting the media, contacting my congressmen, and was ready to do my part. I saw how they presented themselves, and thought, "these people don't look crazy, and they have legitimate questions." When I saw Cynthia McKinney chairing the 9/11 Omission Hearings (which didn't even mention CD), I thought, "jeez... this is the real deal." When Bob McIlvaine cried on stage during those hearings, I lost it. I balled my eyes out. Every time I watch him speak, I get welled up. When Jenna Orkin talked about the "equivalent to that of liquid drano", my heart dropped. When I attended the People's Commission in D.C. I was so damned proud of everyone in that room that attended.

    I felt like I was apart of something "special" back then. I knew I was doing the right thing. Now, I still feel like I'm doing the right thing, but the "value" of what I'm doing seems insignificant when drowned out by the "static" that is currently the message of the "movement."

    Maybe I need a break.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  21. JV
    Member

    # From "9/11 Truth" to possibly "9/11 Awareness"

    It doesn't seem probable that directing attention toward governmental officials will generate the movement that we hope for. Directing attention toward officials does not lead to paradigm shift. #

    I would even say that is true for "leaders" in general. There is not a traditional political solution available for 9/11 justice. Politicians in the US, like Conyers or Paul, cannot even proceed towards impeachment (itself a lame excuse to avoid immediate arrests). With this in mind the focus of paradigm shifting should be on the whole population, not the controllers or leaders.


    Great thread going on here. Funny to see familiar people joining the forum :D Wish I could comment more right now. But it's all very interesting to read. Did someone mention "great chunks of the movement" ?!

    Here is a short report of my tuesday at GZ here: http://newyorkny911truth.org/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl...

    Posted 16 years ago #
  22. redhed718
    Member

    DBLS Lets Get something clear. this movevent has gone so promadonna the Luke had his own security team.Do you even think they would allow anyone other that thier select few to get up on stage?I have been at thier meetings where they hand pick and choose who speaks and who doesnt. And dont think for a second other would not be dragged out voilently.Too many people in this movement do nothing. That i agree.But it takes moreto being active in this movement besides getting onstage and speaking toother people in this movemt. The sttering wheel has been handed to a select few. And you sond like your one of those select few. Easy to pat yourselves on the back for your achivements. Quick to critisize anyone who sees othewrwise. Why not take the critisim constructivly And try to make a better appearence for all our sakes. I had the unfortunate experience of findind ou tthis year what the people were fighting for think about us. And its not pretty. Because weve become so high and mighty, your comments prove,we dont care what people think. Well,in the court of public opinion,wheich is the court were pushing this case against,we need every extra juror we can get.Noone saying there wasnt good aspects of this weekends. But the bad aspacts are terryfing

    Posted 16 years ago #
  23. christs4sale
    Administrator

    How has Alex Jones or any of the right wing of this movement benefited any of the rest of the movement? Other than the promotion of Berkey water filters, of which I am a proud owner, how has anyone of us benefited from this? They promote an ideology that is unsustainable and completely rooted in selfishness, they have completely decreased the standards of what is acceptable research, they can not accept criticism and function reasonably in a sensible debate, they lead a lot of impressionable young people into these directions and I agree with redhed718 that they have formed this sort of celebrity culture within the 9/11 movement.

    Granted unity is important, but without putting really strong, well-thought-out principles first, unity is worthless. The lack of principle has put us in this current situation.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  24. truthmover
    Administrator

    Moderator Comment

    Dem's comments were deleted as they were not constructive or logical. No name calling here please. For the record, Libertarianism may in some forms not be a conservative ideology. The form of Libertariansm we see coming from Alex Jones or Ron Paul, and then by extention WAC, is quite conservative.

    Redhed718, we all appreciate hearing someone break through the overbearing themes and leadership surrounding you guys to let us know you aren't all marching to the same drum.

    We all appreciate that there are many thoughtful people in your group, but you wouldn't know it from all your publicity. As you imply it is readily apparent that certain people are controlling the message. That might make more sense if you all agreed with it.

    Posted 16 years ago #
  25. christs4sale
    Administrator

    Here is DBLS' response on a different forum:

    http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2225&...

    Looks like one of the assclowns at TruthMove just deleted by posts, probably that c*cksucker "christs4sale" cus I think he/she is an administrator or something there. Anyway here's what I posted, Danse man the people making these arguments about how they're so dissatisfied with what happened this year in NY are a bunch of bitter losers in my opinion, who chat shit like "they can not accept criticism and function reasonably in a sensible debate" and then delete people's criticism of them;

    Please let it be known that I was not the deleter of that post. I kind of wish that it was there because you can see what I am responding to, but I understand Truthmover's reasons for removing it. I do not have time to respond to everything he has said about my post but I will respond a bit here:

    "Alex Jones or any of the right wing"

    Alex Jones is not "right wing" he's a just a genuine conservative and there should not be a "left" or "right" wing of the 9/11 Truth Movement. "Left and Right Wing" false paradigm garbage is what has been used to dived and conquer, it makes people politically INEFFECTUAL!! The 9/11 Truth Movement should be part of the effort to shatter that false paradigm, not play into it. But clearly people like you are still hypnotized and put in a little box from which you snipe at other little boxes. Truly pathetic.

    "They promote an ideology"

    Who's this sinister "They" you speak of, if it's Alex Jones the only ideology he's promoting is one of freedom, sovereignty and respect for The Constitution.

    Alex Jones and his followers promote ideas that are almost identical to that of the John Birch Society. Most people classify the John Birch Society as a right-wing organization and for the sake of convenience, I use this classification.

    It is wrong to not acknowledge the fact that there are dividing lines within the 9/11 movement concerning what we want to pursue as solutions, what issues we should link 9/11 to and what format a proper government should be. These are discussions we should all be having in a free and open format, but I rarely see these issues brought up.

    "rooted in selfishness"

    What the F*ck are you talking about, again if you’re talking about Alex Jones the man looks about 50 years old, he's 30 something, he works he ass off to the point of poor health it's hardly selfish of him to devote almost every waking breath to exposing vital truths about heinous acts like 9/11. If he's trying to make money that's because finances are vital to help win this thing, how much money do you think it costs the enemy to buy up all the meida and politicians and sponsor terror attacks? Money is vital, without it you can’t do anything and again Alex Jones is putting it right back in to the fight, how "selfish" of him.

    I am not talking about Alex Jones the individual as much as I am talking about the ideology that Alex Jones is rooted in and promotes. Bring up the issues of the environment or immigration and you'll see what I mean by selfish ideology. I also do not think that Alex Jones or Ron Paul want to change the basic format of the government. They still want a representative elite representing the people rather than a real democracy where the people represent themselves. The only reasons I hear against real democracy are completely elitist like it being "mob rule" or "what if 100 million Mexicans cross the border." Forget about our history with Mexico or our foreign policy that effects the Mexican people or what would happen if we kicked every undocumented immigrant out. I mean when do you hear Jones or Paul ever talk about the genocide and slavery that the foundation of this country is actually based on. I always here from them and many people in general that we have to return to the time "when this country was good." I would love to know when that was when you look at an overall picture of the United States' foreign and domestic policies.

    I will try to respond to more of this later when I have the time, but I would like to know why anything I have said in disagreement with DBLS has justified him calling me a cocksucker on the Truthaction forum.

    Posted 16 years ago #

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