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Enough Is Enough (144 posts)

  1. Hope you don't mind another drop-in share. Feel free to share your thoughts.

    Note: You may not understand this completely if you have not been working in the Ny sector, but i will do my best to walk you through it. If nothing else drop me any questions you wish, and i will do my best to get to them soon as capable. .......................................................................................................................

    This is not the Alex Jones, We Are Change, Louder Then Words, (or Ron Paul) movement..this movement is about 9/11, and getting down to what really happened. And enough is enough. This weekend and on was a total disgrace, hypocricy, and the elitist behavior that has been brewing has proved destructive here in Nyc. I hope somehow those of you in other places have made up for this, but there is no doubt this was the "center stage" because of the ceremonies.

    Having dealt with CHANGE personally, and their heirarchy, i'm not surprised in the least by their behavior. Jones i was at least hoping for better from, but i knew anything could happen, and Louder Then Words demonstrated what they were about when they banned people from their forums, who they got research for their movies from. As well as their childish behavior that followed. Yet here we were, ending the 6th anniversary with these very individuals, from Luke Rudkowski to Dylan Avery, and beyond, leading the way under who they called "the Grand Infowarrior", Alex Jones. Are we trying to be freemasons? I thought we knew better then to make people into icons. I thought we knew better then to follow anyone but ourselves. People are human, and sometimes worse.

    Change and Les Jameisons' ny911truth spent the last year dividing up Nyc, they both then unleashed organizations with narrow-agenda's..the very principle most all in the movement(including those very previously mentioned individuals) claimed to be against. No politics, no parties..just investigation and truth. But long behold we have left groups, right groups, you name it...and as groups that ate up real sincere and diverse organizations that they were attached to previously and could have been. Slick promotion and a connection with Alex Jones is something that Jameison and crew did not have, and so it was Change that got the glammer image. This probably has alot of you who are fans saying "wtf is he talking about?". Well give me a fair chance.

    Let me take you back only to Sunday. I visited Webster Hall in Manhattan, got a look at how the event was going. Quickly i found the scene alarming. Looking like Hollywood, chosen son after chosen son of the movement came through to a welcome wagon, and everyone else had to go through a barrage of security. As if it wasn't disturbing enough, half the security was Change's own security! It was then that i found out that they had filled the PUBLIC protest on Saturday night, with security as well(available in pictures off their site, some of which i saved). Security coordinating with the cops to, as Nate of Change said, "Keep the people in order." Are you serious? Well i gave him my words for that, and rightfully so. Whether it's gone to their heads or worse, it's safe to say the problem is directly among us, as much as it is around us. We have hit the "controlled" stage, for certain. Most of the people who go out to Change events are sincere people, i want to make that clear. But the problem that they have had sinse the beginning is that they are a group based around heirarchy, lingering on icon cultship. Of course Mr. Rudkowski would be quick to exclaim, "there are no rules, so how could anyone rule". But if there are no rules, how could you have security. Who had the head pieces, Mr. Rudkowski(and friends)? Enough said. Caught in a lie there, sir. Not the first time. We have a huge and perhaps now fatal problem.

    Surely enough, along came the Tuesday event. The one that was supposed to "make history". Before i get to this..let me discuss some important issues:

    If you have seen the promo's by We Are Change, or have seen the webpage for the 6th anniverary events, themselves, you would find it quite interesting. The site opens up with, as a couple people put it, monster truck rally type announcing. The videos bring mtv like flashwork and icons...yes, there will be JACK BLOOD, LOUDER THEN WORDS(loose change), ALEX JONES, WE ARE CHANGE(five heirarchy only shown, out of the many people in the group. Luke front and center.), ect. Lack of focus on the truth, lack of focus on showing the solemnity of the time, drawing people with facts-nothing like that-just a vma award type of promotion. How innappropriate and narrowly focused.

    There is then the problem, and Change admits this about themselves, that the keynote 9/11 event of the year(and perhaps the most important yet..well undoubtably) was seized by the hands of a group that is hardly a truth and justice for 9/11-focused group. Their events and coverage also largely focus on the tax activist Brown family, the income tax itself, the belief that global warming isn't manmade, and of course the campaign of Ron Paul..who has come to say on camera "I don't believe 9/11 was a government job." We have quite a hypocricy here on the last one. And what a good job confusing someone just learning about the truth behind 9/11, when you hand them a dvd and a ron paul sticker. Wait till they hear him talk about the 9/11 commission and how great it is, at a debate! Or when they find a clip of him denying the truth about 9/11. Horrible move. And this has undoubtably been a big reason why the movement appears to have seen a near halt in growth the last few months, after all the growth these past couple years. Not that Change are the only ones who have partaken in that. This is a terrible mistake. But point being, a group that has it's own specific agenda-which will be both too much for some, and sometimes not agreed with by many others in the movement(including people new to it)-should not be running an unowned event that is focused specifically on the truth behind 9/11.

    And this is where todays event comes in. And where Alex Jones comes in.

    He knows how big an icon he is. Sadly it's true. My feelings on Jones before this have always been, "He's human, seems to do some good, but he's human." Those thoughts and feelings on him and his crew have now spiraled quickly after watching this all go on. From not only failing to warn away the Change security, but rather having quite a bit of it surround him; to not rejecting being made a rock star..or should i say pope..or grand freemason..or whatever; to essentially giving Change and Loose Change miracle grow; to failing today to even bother to help ignite the kind of post-ceremony action at the World Trade Grounds that we had last year and gained the attention of many; he has a big hand in this. Yes he has. There was no major speakout following the ceremony at the grounds, there was not a whole lot of disbursing amidst the crowd as the time neared, either. Just waiting..and waiting..and then leaving, off to other places with a fraction of the onlookers. There was a short spout of pouring rain(20 minutes tops), but everyone was still there when it was done, and nothing happened. So much for promises.

    These 5 days of events in Nyc were all about promotion of self. From start to finish. It was never about the families, victims, ect. Not to the "leaders". Someone can say what they want about the money donated to the first responders(if they get it all, where's the fund?), but even that was just a way for the "big names" to propagate themselves as kings and queens of the phrase they've dirtied,"9/11 truth". End Game and Loose Change Final cut got major promotion for their videos which will cash out big time. These three entities are going to attempt to come out of this, more then ever as the coup de grace, and as Change put it, "the only real truth group." It's not truth if you don't live up to it.

    Sorry to say. I'm very angry, dissapointed, disgusted, and doubtful about our changes. Many of us sacrificed way too much, times we can never have back, swallowed personal pains just to take part, you name it, and this is what it has come to. My deepest apologies go out to all those living and dead victims, because of what happened. You deserved alot better..even if you don't know it yet. As a man once said(before it got adopted by Keith Oberman), Goodnight and goodluck. God certainly knows it's going to be needed.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. JohnA
    Member

    Thank you for giving voice to what so many are feeling at this time. But, i think it is important to also reflect upon our own failures as well. many of the most credible activists have 'checked out' of the movement and created the power vacuum which these 2nd rate events now filled.

    the sad truth is that they appear to be more organized than we are. and for those of us who KNEW ahead of time what debacles these events would be - we did NOTHING to counter them.

    people in NYC only had two choices - the Les Jamieson UFO Tarpley-3-minutes-of-hate event - or - the Monster Truck glamous lifestyles of 911 icons event.

    we failed this year by not even offering an alternative. there were no meaningful actions planned. there were no roundtables. no townhall meetings. no film showings. nothing. nadda. we were just observers - and now we complain about how sour those grapes really are.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. This is true, as well, John. I can't deny the fact there were virtually no alternatives. I know there were a few small gatherings, but thats about it. I also think quite a number of people did walk away, too fustrated and tired from talking to deaf ears. Many of which probably spent the day doing it on their own. Not that i could blame them for working that way. Unfortunately, it's been a problem getting most people in the movement to even respond to questions regarding these recent agendas. If any response at all, it is usually "i trust them", or "he's just saying that so the media doesn't crucify him", or something else of the sort. So i'll definitely concede that there was not a good enough job to combat this, but at the same time i have to say that is also, to a decent degree, due to the fact that most of the people have flocked to these groups on blind faith.

    I wish at mimimum(though it may be too little too late), people who experienced this debacle from any angles, would wake up today and say..how did this happen, i can't let this happen again, we need to change direction now. Not getting that sense, at least not yet.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. JohnA
    Member

    it remains to be seen if anyone will rise to the occasion. i know that a series of complaints have been bouncing around in my email inbox directed at David Ray Griffin, Janice Matthews, Barrie Zwicker, Kyle Hence, 911 Visibility, Mike Berger, and on and on. i know that we are not the only ones complaining - and i think it is only appropriate to call upon these highly-visible leaders to step up to the plate and work together towards creating a more cohesive presence in the movement. they have all done great work - individually - but, the silence is deafening when it comes to this obviously severe problem.

    for so many years we've been told to just ignore these fringe groups. well - it appears that these fringe groups have succeeded in gaining the upper hand - and unless we find some meaningful leadership from someone with credibility - i think the movement is dead.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. I think we as a movement do need some meaningful leadership, but it needs to be in a different form. It needs to be on an person by person basis. The mistake that has been eating us alive, as much as anything, has been the adoption of leaders..looking to leaders..putting these trusts people who sound favorable. We have to take it into our hands, no matter how anyone else reacts to us. As person by person does that, they will find the space around them filling with other people who have taken the same action. Only we can rise to the occasion, and hope other people do the same.

    They day we can have an event/s where everyone can share what they believe, and all amongst can levy its value, without slideshow attacks and shouts of agent and physical threats and hollywood moments..you name it..is the day we would have a chance, time permitting(and i'm not sure how much time is permitting now).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. More than anything this movement is psychological/spiritual, and too often our egos are beaten down, and the response is ego infatuation. Many in the movement have decided that belittlement is a useful tool, but belittlement of others opens the door to rank and file. The truth is not heard directly, so we have used deception and derision, which is resolute in it's immediate effect.

    The movement has taken to desperation, and confused that with advancement. We need to stay balanced.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. JohnA
    Member

    yes - but there ARE provacateurs among us who will intentionally make a mockery of this approach and overturn the applecart every chance they het.

    i am almost getting to the point where i would prefer to see a very strict and clearlu defined code of conduct - sanctioned mandates and objectives defined by leaders we can trust - with zero tollerance for any deviations or disruptions from the approved agenda.

    one of the most powerful tools the disruptors seem to utilize is the cry of 'censorship' and 'elitism'. screw that. i watched 911Blogger descend into chaos because of the carefully crafted demands that ALL theories be respected equally.

    TRUTH is not something that is open to a democratic process. speculation and theories is not TRUTH. facts and opinions are two different things. the truth movement needs to stop speculating and start building a platform for activism that limits itself to forcing the media and our elected representatives to supply us with the answers we demand.

    grassroots movements can be a beautiful thing - but - unfortunately - i think it is clear that this formula will not work when there are clearly people being inserted into this movement with the expressed intentions of poisoning the well.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. I don't think reaching that point would be effective, nor morally correct. Fustrations can tempt such idea's, but we can't cross that barrier. Besides the fact it would make those involved look like the structure we are up against, i believe this...

    If someone has something to say, and i believe it is incorrect(or worse), i want to have them in my presence, and i, in theirs. I want the moment they choose to speak up to be the moment i can respond. If i keep them away, they will build a crowd somewhere else, unchallenged. If i am correct, i am bound to succeed in an open, uncensored, and balanced forum. If one of the puppets that wanted to sell attacking Iran tried to invite themselves to an event i was part of, i would welcome them. Because the moment they show up and talk, i am going to be ready to break them down. It sure beats them ranting to their crowd, far far away from my voice.

    Of course, i also could never trust any one who is in a spotlight position to decide what is and isn't appropriate. If nothing else, no two people see completely eye to eye, and i fear worse. Based on what i've witnessed, i have good reason to.

    I'm completely opposed to any censorship of information, and i am convinced the censorship there of will keep us in this everlasting cycle we've existed in as humanity.

    Another problem we have, i think, is we need to abandon calling ourselves 9/11 Truth. We are constantly finding out new things, and while we know certain things to be true, others are in a process of metamorphasis and at times expansion. Even on occasion, retraction. The word truth, as i believe someone here not so long ago stated, has gone from one meaning to a totally different one. It can even be seen as arrogant now, for all its well intention by most people in its origin. It has been dirtied. Truth has become the label on the search for information, rather then the result of the search for information, in many sectors. And by doing this we would also feel more comfortable facing those pieces of information we are convinced are a destructive.

    No one can come into this movement and say "Iraq war is justified because..." and gain supporters, because it was a concept faced head on. Some things are more tricky, but must be met accordingly. Now if you told me that someone who said the war in iraq was justified should be blacklisted/banned, i would say that is exactly what the people pushing the war are doing to us. So likewise, we must act in all matters. No matter how fustrated we get.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. Victronix
    Member

    The mistake that has been eating us alive, as much as anything, has been the adoption of leaders

    Key point. Perhaps the most important point.

    When you get fed up with the abuse and nonsense, you call up three friends and you imagine the event, the group, the media, the method, whatever it is that is the thing you would love to see . . . you make a date, you have a meeting, and together, the three or four or five of you do it.

    Nothing more is needed.

    The knowledgeable speakers, researchers, family members, EMTs, activists, witnesses, etc., are waiting for each of us to send them an email or call them on the phone and say "please come to our event-group-website-filming, etc." They are waiting for us to do that. And if we don't, the current false leadership (not talking about intentions, but outcome) will do it instead.

    The people here on truthmove started a strike action and it went viral. We each can do these. We just have to step out of discussion mode and make a date.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. Victronix
    Member

    Another problem we have, i think, is we need to abandon calling ourselves 9/11 Truth

    I've taken to using the phrase the "9/11 community" -- we are a worldwide community around this issue. This is a simple and social truth. It seems to resonate with people.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. Victronix
    Member

    one of the most powerful tools the disruptors seem to utilize is the cry of 'censorship' and 'elitism'. screw that. i watched 911Blogger descend into chaos because of the carefully crafted demands that ALL theories be respected equally. TRUTH is not something that is open to a democratic process.

    Here here. This is why our STJ group has essentially paused and is in a holding pattern in terms of it's organizing -- the disinfo / misinfo resources to destroy any group via a democratic process of governance is too huge right now and not enough people yet are educated on coping with it.

    The reality is that forums like this which are controlled firmly but respectfully by a small group which agrees on it's limits is the only kind that works. Interestingly, I've also seen the openness on blogger backfire on the misinfo efforts -- people have gotten educated at a very rapid pace about the specifics of the hoaxes and disruptors. I don't think anyone expected that to happen, certainly not with Kennebunkport. That's why it ended up with the sacrifice of a big name.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. Diane
    Member

    sweetsacrifice wrote:

    Change and Les Jameisons' ny911truth spent the last year dividing up Nyc, they both then unleashed organizations with narrow-agenda's..the very principle most all in the movement(including those very previously mentioned individuals) claimed to be against. No politics, no parties.. just investigation and truth. But long behold we have left groups, right groups, you name it...and as groups that ate up real sincere and diverse organizations that they were attached to previously and could have been.

    Every political movement has factions. It's inevitable. In my opinion, the only way to counteract the "Ron Paul" crowd would be to have a strong, large, well-organized leftist faction as a counterbalance within the 9/11 Truth movement. Of course there should ALSO be other groups that aim to be politically neutral and just focus on the facts. But genuine political neutrality will not be possible without a rough balance among the political factions.

    Anyhow, I agree with others here that the biggest problem is that TruthMove, or some similar group, did NOT provide any alternatives to Change's events.

    sweetsacrifice also wrote:

    Security coordinating with the cops to, as Nate of Change said, "Keep the people in order." Are you serious?

    To avoid trouble with police, it is indeed helpful to have parade marshalls, or something similar, helping to keep order at a parade or rally. I see nothing wrong with this. For example, the annual Gay Pride parade has marshals, two marshals from each group that is authorized to participate. I have plenty of gripes against We Are Change and its endorsement of Alex Jones's political agenda (more about this later), but the idea of having a security force is, in my opinion, a good idea, not a bad one.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. Diane
    Member

    Viktronix wrote:

    I've taken to using the phrase the "9/11 community" -- we are a worldwide community around this issue.

    A problem with the term "9/11 community" is that, at least here in New York, that term is already in use to refer to a much larger set of people than the 9/11 Truth movement, namely the set of all people directly affected by the events of 9/11, including families of victims, first responders, and people who live or work in the vicinity of the World Trade Center. By no means to all such people support the 9/11 Truth movement. Many still staunchly support the official story, or prefer not to think about such matters at all.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. Victronix
    Member

    Thanks for pointing that out about NYC . .. have others noticed that too? It's a great phrase. Any other ideas are welcome.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. I think if you decide to be a group that is about one type of belief/agenda, or another, in itself..there's nothing wrong with it. The problem is, when you are hypocritical, supressive, and try to pretend you are something you aren't. For a group that is clearly not focused on 9/11, but on a specific agenda that 9/11 is part of, it was very wrong for them to try to seize the day. The behavior therein made it much worse. I am total disagreeance on the security apparatus being okay. Especially at the Saturday and Sunday events, when they seemed to have practically a dozen security guards. People are individuals. They can deal with the police accordingly. We may start a protest, but we by no means own it. Public property is public property. When i was told to move by an officer, and get behind a barricade on tuesday, i told him i was reserving my first amendment right and would move when i was done. I told him that i had been there all day and had not blocked anyone, had moved when needed. There was plenty of space on either side of me, by the way. He then told me he wasn't there to have a conversation with me, and i told him i didn't come there to have a conversation with him either, so the feeling was mutual. I think turned around and continued my conversation. He didn't like it, but he walked away. You've got to be wise, know your moment, and act accordingly. This assistance in helping keep people caged is unacceptable to me.

    9/11 community is interesting, but i can see where Diane has a good point. One thing i can definitely say, Truthmove is a good name for a group seeking truth's of various sorts. Because it implies not neccessarily a presumption of the truth, but an action towards finding and enacting it. So who ever chose that name, it stands pretty well right now. We Are Change was also a good name, problem is they've proved again that the more things change, the more they stay the same. But really speaking on something that is specifically for getting to the bottom of the barrel on 9/11. I don't know. But i'm doing my best not to call it 9/11 truth anymore.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. Diane
    Member

    More about "9/11 community": If I recall correctly, I saw that phrase on a piece of literature I picked up at the World Trade Center visitor's center on Liberty Street, to refer to the set of people eligible to be tour guides. These are supposed to be people with some kind of personal history connecting them to the events of 9/11.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. Diane
    Member

    sweetsacrifice wrote:

    People are individuals. They can deal with the police accordingly. We may start a protest, but we by no means own it.

    The problem here is that, when a handful of individuals involved in a protest irritate the police, they may cause the police to panic, resulting in harm to other people in the group too. It is far better, in my opinion, to have an orderly protest coordinated by the group.

    I would prefer a protest run by a group other than a bunch of right wingers like We Are Change, but that's another matter. (I cringed when they chanted, "Down with the New World Order!")

    You've got to be wise, know your moment, and act accordingly.

    Unfortunately, it's just not realistic to expect everyone to be "wise."

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. Victronix
    Member

    Yes, the reality is that in some protest situations -- As Dick Becker said of the ANSWER effort with the RNC -- it can be considered a success if everyone is still alive at the end of it. I understand the feelings though, at being controlled by "security," esp at an event like this, clearly not RNC level. But I think when you end up in some of the life threatening protest situations that can happen, you realize the importance of people's lives in public gatherings, and what can really go wrong. We need our space, the streets are ours, but it's easy for cops to take over a situation, or create one, if someone else doesn't keep things in control and have negotiators on hand.

    That said, security can be done with care.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. Diane
    Member

    JohnA wrote:

    Thank you for giving voice to what so many are feeling at this time. But, i think it is important to also reflect upon our own failures as well. many of the most credible activists have 'checked out' of the movement and created the power vacuum which these 2nd rate events now filled.

    the sad truth is that they appear to be more organized than we are. and for those of us who KNEW ahead of time what debacles these events would be - we did NOTHING to counter them.

    Thanks for acknowledging this. I hope this means TruthMove will start holding regular meetings soon, or at least meetings that are scheduled more than a day or two in advance.

    people in NYC only had two choices - the Les Jamieson UFO Tarpley-3-minutes-of-hate event - or - the Monster Truck glamous lifestyles of 911 icons event.

    I feel that you've unfairly caricatured the other events here. Both had their good points too. But we definitely do need a well-organized, higher-quality alternative.

    we failed this year by not even offering an alternative. there were no meaningful actions planned. there were no roundtables. no townhall meetings. no film showings. nothing. nadda. we were just observers - and now we complain about how sour those grapes really are.

    It wil be necessary to build up to the next anniversary (assuming we don't get nuked this week, that is) by holding regular meetings. Until such time as you find a venue, can't TruthMove at least hold informal regular meetings -- or at least occasional mettings with some reasonable advance notice -- in a diner or inexpensive restaurant somewhere? (I would suggest the Moonstruck Diner at 23rd Street and 9th Avenue, or perhaps the Viselka Ukrainian restaurant on Second Avenue in the East Village -- I forget the exact cross-street. Others might have better ideas.)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. See my issue in that regard, Diane, with Change is not whether they are ring wing, it's that they are a wing at all. They pulled a game on people, with Jones promoting them as "THE ny 9/11 truth scene", what ever that means. What we needed was a crowd of people of all backgrounds as one, not a crowd of one background trying to claim they were calling upon the background of all.

    I agree it's not realistic to expect everyone to be wise, but we have to give people that right. I won't make excuses for why some police have done the things they do. If a couple people in a crowd act roudy, i am smart enough to see they are acting on their own accord. When police forces do that, it is by design. So there are two problems, but neither of which is solved by policing your own group of people. Which, just once more i have to say, how is it their right? It's public space, i don't have to comply(nor would i). I see it as an arrogant step of people with large ego's who think they own other people who show in attendence with them.

    It's best explained this way. The ultimate goal, or one of them, that the structure has is for us to be controlled..entirely, utterly, robotic devices of the machine. Cannon fodder when they desire. So if we help them do that by enforcing their desired will our very own selves, then we are making it easy for them. To challenge horrific things, you have to take chances. You can't play it safe. When it's played safe, we end up with what happened yesterday and last weekend, and in the long term worse.

    We can't protect ourselves from that reality. We can't protect people from themselves, people have been hiding from themselves too long.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. jan
    Member

    Thanks for starting this fascinating and necessary discussion.

    For what it's worth, I would like to share a brief history and potential strategy thoughts.

    I believe that in 2005 the national 9-11 truth movement was targeted for "public relations destruction", directly due to the successes of the 2004-2005 protest action movement of the National 9-11 Visibility Project and 911Truth.org. The combination of the rise of networking among dedicated leaders and activists, 9-11 protest attendees who looked like middle America and the display of attractive, non-threatening movement signage had potential to exponentially grow the movement with increased allies and mainstream attention and public sympathy.

    Complicit media has repeatedly portrayed the 911 truth movement as a big extreme tent embracing of screwball theories and full of hostility. IMO, one goal of this (cointelpro) campaign has been to completely alienate independent women away from involvement in the 9-11 truth issue. (Fetzer's personality was very alienating to women). Select leaders were in the wings ready to wrestle for a microphone. Finally, changing the bright signage of the original movement to black signs was a significant change that encouraged public perception of the movement as an extreme subculture.

    Transition to the public relations nightmare that exists today.

    It is never too late to begin a coordinated attempt to salvage public relations damage. Near the top of this agenda should be a redesign of the movement's signage and an intelligent marketing campaign that will not alienate the gentler sex. Many people are savvy that the movement has been targeted and would join if they saw change.

    With respect to the other issue, please give careful consideration of the essence of our goal to appeal to a specific target market. A variation of "9-11 Justice Campaign" might be appropriate focus. Perhaps "Constitution" somewhere in the title, since restoring it could also be included in the essense.

    Peace, Jan Hoyer

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. Some people i spoke with over the weekend shared your thoughts regarding '04-'05. I entered in early '05 and my first street action with other people in the movement was 9/11/05, so i didn't know much about what occurred within the movement during those times. I was just learning and telling people i knew. I didn't even realize till that day, that there were more then a few others who knew. I expected to see 50 tops, and there were over 350. But i didn't realize that was actually less then expected till the other day. Apparently it revived and expanded in '06 but we have taken a deadly hit this year. I do agree with your assessment regarding the pushing away of independent women. At one point when we shared meetings with Change earlier in the year, before colors started to show, i believe there were typically 2, maybe 3 females, compared to 10-20 males. It baffled me. I know there are other reasons, but i can see what you are saying by looking at the percentages in the crowds. I do believe it's improved a little(one of the few good things that happened this year), but it was very recent and i'm not sure if this is true on the national level.

    Regarding the shirts, i never noticed it because i've always liked black. But i can see what you are saying, based on public preperceptions on what wearing black means(though that bubble needs to be broken). As i've thought about, as well, and it has been influence to wear an alternate color at times when i knew others would be wearing one specific color, it can be very comformist to have everyone wearing the exact same thing. That may not be an accident. Yesterday i even chose not to wear a 9/11 truth shirt at all, but rather wear a sweater and bring a sign i made. I believe the truth move guys had orange shirts. Someone had a yellow shirt(and i'm not talking about the security guys this time). It was good to see the interfaith peace group show up there, as well, dressed as who they are. That was special. Diversity is what we are..as a people. The movement would have to be that same way to succeed.

    9/11 Justice Campaign sounds pretty good. I definitely feel it's more appropriate. My one worry is the word campaign. Brings up political party imagery. I wonder if it does for others. Otherwise, i think it is pretty sharp.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. Diane
    Member

    sweetsacrifice wrote:

    See my issue in that regard, Diane, with Change is not whether they are ring wing, it's that they are a wing at all. They pulled a game on people, with Jones promoting them as "THE ny 9/11 truth scene", what ever that means. What we needed was a crowd of people of all backgrounds as one, not a crowd of one background trying to claim they were calling upon the background of all.

    But why is We Are Change able to get away with this? Because there isn't a counterbalancing solidly left-wing group in the movement, at least not here in NYC. If there were a well-organized counter-balancing left-wing group, it would be far more obvious to all that Change is a right-wing group.

    To challenge horrific things, you have to take chances. You can't play it safe. When it's played safe, we end up with what happened yesterday and last weekend, and in the long term worse.

    These really are separate issues. We could have had much better events while still having parade marshals, preferably appointed by a coalition of groups rather than just one group.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. Diane
    Member

    sweetsacrifice wrote:

    We can't protect people from themselves, people have been hiding from themselves too long.

    The point of having parade marshals is not to protect people from themselves, but to protect people from EACH OTHER's potential stupidity or ignorance. When you're in a group of protesters, one person's behavior can affect the safety of many other people in the group, not just the person's own.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. Diane
    Member

    jan wrote:

    With respect to the other issue,

    Which other issue?

    please give careful consideration of the essence of our goal to appeal to a specific target market.

    Which specific target market?

    A variation of "9-11 Justice Campaign" might be appropriate focus. Perhaps "Constitution" somewhere in the title, since restoring it could also be included in the essense.

    "Constitution" opens a can of worms, which may or may be appropriate depending on which "target market" you had in mind. People of different political persuasions have very different ideas on what it means to "restore" the Constitution.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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