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9/11 Truth and Division (65 posts)

1. Arabesque
   Member

   9/11 Truth and Division: Disinformation, Agent Provocateurs, and False Adversaries http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2007/10/911-truth...

   Understanding the psychology of disruption

   While it is human to be upset or angry, those who disrupt intentionally want you to ignore their destructive behavior so that they can keep doing it. They want to fight you—they do not want to have dialog. Their only purpose is to disrupt. Their chief weapons are divisive labels, controversial issues, and ad-hominem.

   The 9/11 truth movement is what its members make it to be. Either we can work together by critiquing each other in a civil and respectful manner, or we can fight with ourselves until the end of time while the crimes of 9/11 go unanswered. Staying silent on this problem will not provide a solution. The disrupters are here, and they are not going away.

   The agent provocateur is as virulent a form of disinformation that exists within the 9/11 truth movement. Whether by intent or ego, those who emphasize attacking individuals rather than critiquing ideas in a respectful manner are working against the 9/11 truth movement, not for it.

   Posted 16 years ago #
2. Victronix
   Member

   Speaking of the division, here's a new story about a situation that has been going on for at least the past year, apparently -

   ---

   http://adamholland.blogspot.com/2007/10/911-truth-...

   9/11 "Truth" Movement Leader Stopped From Airing Pro-Nazi TV Show (For Now)

   What possible connection could 9/11 have with the Holocaust?

   Tuesday, October 9, 2007

   . . . "Campbell started small, showing videos blaming Jews for 9/11 at his local library. When nobody came to see them, he focused his attention on his local public access / free speech cable channel which he convinced to show several such videos in spite of protests from viewers that they promoted hate. Now Campbell's campaign to spread anti-Semitism under the guise of promoting "9/11 truth" has hit a road bump. He has tried to have an overtly pro-Nazi film called "Judea Declares War on Germany" shown and that has drawn attention to the truth about this "truth" advocate.

   After some consideration of whether or not to show the film, the station has declined, pending further discussion. Campbell is now receiving the support of neo-Nazi groups such as the National Alliance (the largest neo-Nazi group in the U.S.) in postings such as this, which has organized a letter writing campaign for the telecast of the pro-Nazi film."

   Posted 16 years ago #
3. Victronix
   Member

   Also, Carol B is hosting Capt Eric May tonight.

   http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/10/12/184536...

   No mention of white supremacy websites or positions on Jews that I could see.

   Posted 16 years ago #
4. Arabesque
   Member

   Here's a summary of Captain May's comments about the "trained cointelpro professionals"

   "I believe that... the more prolific of our antagonists in the Kennebunkport Warning matter were professional agitators. To take one example, 'Colonel Jenny Sparks' was harassing both the Oregon Truth Alliance and Portland Nuclear Inquest (which I lead) in the weeks before the Kennebunkport Warning. In typical agitator fashion, she claimed to do so in order to defend the 911 Truth Movement and debunk our "alarmism" for alerting Portland to the dangers the nuclear simulation, Operation Noble Resolve. She and cohorts infiltrated both group lists and hurled monkey wrenches in every direction before getting the boot. As a lasting memorial of the encounter, they then set up their own user group, made up of a mixed set of a dozen agitators and useful idiots, largely dedicated to damning me and browbeating [other local activists]. Every once in awhile I read it for amusement."

   "Uh, with Jenny Sparks I think you're at both ends--I think she uses professional cointelpro cooperation and then useful idiots where ever they can be found... They're... trained cointelpro professionals--agitprop activists--and their job is not to produce positive analysis. If you can look far and near for any article of any consequence, by any of these people and you'll not find it. But what you'll find is a constant rat-a-tat of criticism against anyone else's work. And that is because their mission is not to develop the area of 911 analyses, or the next 911 prediction--it's to impede 911 analysis and prediction. So, these are classic disinformation tactics… you have to realize there are organized cointelpro cells… I've run into half a dozen of them. Anything from military professionals who went by rank, although would not sign their work, to, you know, cute synonyms like Arabesque or Jenny Sparks who would not sign their work… they usually coalesce and target specific points. You have to see them as military assets."

   If you want to see a ridiculously hilarious list of accusations against us, read here: http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2007/09/webster-t...

   Posted 16 years ago #
5. RegnatorOmnium
   Blocked

   http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-765224930...

   Replace the word "love" with its sibling "truth" and you will have understanding.

   Posted 16 years ago #
6. RegnatorOmnium
   Blocked

   He has tried to have an overtly pro-Nazi film called "Judea Declares War on Germany" shown and that has drawn attention to the truth about this "truth" advocate.

   How do you know it's pro-Nazi?

   "Judea Declares War on Germany" was a front-page headline on the March 24, 1933 edition of the British newspaper, the Daily Express. It began an article which declared a boycott against Germany.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_Declares_War_on...

   My understanding is that the German Jews where far less enthusiastic about pissing the Nazis off than were the Rothschildian elitists. BTW, be careful to distinguish between sites presenting genuine history, and those presenting caricatures of "righteous indignation". There are some sites that claim to promote valid historical accounts, but if you look closely, they are really trying to undermine them.

   Posted 16 years ago #
7. RegnatorOmnium
   Blocked

   There is an even more insidious form of disruptor. There are several people who are presenting themselves as experts on disinformation, and are, themselves, acting as disinformation operatives. Naming them is tantamount to virtual suicide.

   To give an example. There might be a person who is discussing controversial issue because he wants to resolve the issue with legitimate understanding. One of these provocateurs will step in and try to make it look as though the honest investigator is trying to stir up trouble by promoting one of the canonical counter-theories such as bumble planes. Since the provocateur has already established himself as a trusted "authority" on disinformation techniques, the clueless moderator gets the idea that the honest investigator is the problem and banns him form the site where the discussions are taking place.

   It's also important to understand that some people who are trying to prevent the whole truth from getting out are not trying to protect the perpetrators, per se. Instead, they are trying hijack the coup to their own ends.

   You really need to be careful with this situation. The kinds of people likely to step out and challenge the OCT are not the kinds who willingly submit to authority. We are defiant, self-willed, stubborn, skeptical people. Unfortunately, that makes them an easy mark for the provocateurs.

   Posted 16 years ago #
8. Arabesque
   Member

   There is an even more insidious form of disruptor. There are several people who are presenting themselves as experts on disinformation, and are, themselves, acting as disinformation operatives. Naming them is tantamount to virtual suicide.

   Probably because I'm really good at debunking nonsensical and absurd arguments/insinuations like this one.

   Posted 16 years ago #
9. RegnatorOmnium
   Blocked

   Speak that thou might be seen? Do you even realize what you said?

   Posted 16 years ago #
10. chrisc
    Member

    I'm glad to see "RegnatorOmnium" is now listed as having their membership blocked -- several of her/his posts set off alarm bells for me...

    Regarding her/his last post above it was no suprise to me that Arabesque responded the way that he did, if anyone reading this was suprised then I suggest you look at this...

    Posted 16 years ago #
11. Arabesque
    Member

    Canadian Journalist Barrie Zwicker on Disinformation:

    “What’s needed is politically relevant education. Education about agents of all kinds, especially agents provocateurs, their history, who employs them, their tactics… While educating ourselves and others we can simultaneously actively combat agents of the state by refraining from engaging in the types of behaviour they employ to sow dissention: name-calling, rumour-mongering, insinuation... Refraining from this does not stifle vigorous discussion and debate, based on observable facts, statements and patterns. Education drains the swamp.” http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2007/09/911-truth...

    Posted 16 years ago #
12. truthmover
    Administrator

    Moderator Comment

    ---

    Our forum will be maintained as a space free of comments that are posted by people obviously intending only to invalidate our efforts or distract us from focused conversation. While we welcome even the most philosophical critique of our purpose, the line between genuine critique and simple provocation is most often quite clear.

    And what was clear to us here on both a logical and intuitive level was a lack of respect for our intent here, our guidelines, and the people posting. This statement is telling and sounds a bit like Diane's response here to Les' distribution of Criminal Politics.

    I really don't know the validity of your admittedly secondhand reports of EDW's conduct.

    This statement questions our commitment to honest representation, and demonstrates a lack of respect for our experience. Alarm bells, smell test, intuition...forum guidelines. Action.

    Fascist America, in 10 easy steps http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00....

    Number Nine: Dissent equals treason

    "Cast dissent as 'treason' and criticism as 'espionage'."

    Regnator implied many times that in our concern for seeking and promoting valid sources of information that we were in fact misinforming people. That we had become agents of disinformation. It seems that many are pushing this meme. As stated above, we might view this as predictable.

    BTW, don't forget that specific conversation about our forum guidelines should happen on that thread.

    Posted 16 years ago #
13. giveback
    

    QUOTE: "I'm glad to see "RegnatorOmnium" is now listed as having their membership blocked -- several of her/his posts set off alarm bells for me..."

    chrisc,

    I do not see how gladness fits with a membership block, no matter what the reason for the block. Could you clarify this?

    Posted 16 years ago #
14. chrisc
    Member

    I do not see how gladness fits with a membership block, no matter what the reason for the block. Could you clarify this?

    I started writing a longer comment about the disruptive comments from RegnatorOmnium and then realised that s/he had been blocked so I was glad that I could delete what I had started writing, write something shorter and get on with other things...

    Posted 16 years ago #
15. Victronix
    Member

    how gladness fits with a membership block

    I do actually feel glad when someone who is calling people "disinformation operatives" is blocked -- it means the process here works and that intimidation and attack isn't tolerated. The forum is once again a positive place for discussion. If I felt sad that the people who engage in personal attacks 24/7 to disrupt us get blocked everytime they step over the line, I wouldn't get very far!

    Blocking is only creating a protected space for discussion. It's sad when people cannot function in society but I tend to believe that isn't the case here. My guess is that this is the same person who has been blocked at several other forums recently. But that's just a wild guess.

    Posted 16 years ago #
16. truthmod
    Administrator

    Someone passed on some compelling information about who this Regnator character really was, and what his/her history of disruption and disrespect has been. That, along with his clear lack of intention in having a reasonable, legitimate conversation, caused him to be blocked.

    We're not happy to block anyone. But sometimes it appears to be the best course of action, and we do not feel guilty doing what we feel is necessary and positive for unity and progression.

    Posted 16 years ago #
17. giveback
    

    This quote is Gandhi's, and I post it in response to the block and the contention that blocking is a clear and logical, and possibly even cherished, strategy for progression of this movement. Just for the exclusive sake that it is a quote by Gandhi, I do not suppose that it is accurate to the truth. I provide it since it well encapsulates an idea that I've seen play out as true, no matter who said it.

    "The question which confronted [some ancient seeker after truth] was: 'Shall I bear with those who create difficulties for me, or shall I destroy them?' The seeker realized that he who went on destroying others did not make headway but simply stayed where he was, while the man who suffered those who created difficulties marched ahead and at times even took the others with him. The first act of destruction taught him that the truth which was the object of his quest was not outside himself but within. Hence the more he took to violence, the more he receded from the truth. For in fighting the imagined enemy without, he neglected the enemy within."

    from Soul Force: Gandhi's Writings on Peace, pg 225.

    Posted 16 years ago #
18. chrisc
    Member

    Shall I bear with those who create difficulties for me, or shall I destroy them?

    Blocking a disruptor for a forum is hardly destroying them is it.

    If you want to spend your time chatting with disinfo spreaders and disruptor's in a "big tent" style forum then I highly recommend this one: http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/

    Posted 16 years ago #
19. chrisc
    Member

    I'm not sure what your angle is on this.

    Sorry, I didn't realise it wasn't clear, I thought that article was a good example of how those exposing the disinformation are being targeted and attacked.

    Posted 16 years ago #
20. BrunoJTesch
    Blocked

    This situation is more complicated than it may appear.

    Posted 16 years ago #
21. giveback
    

    chrisc,

    Do you suggest that everybody should be like us? That we are the good team, and they are the bad, and if I would appreciate and welcome the engagement of the supposed bad team, then maybe I should be with them?

    Posted 16 years ago #
22. chrisc
    Member

    maybe I should be with them?

    Mabe you are right.

    Posted 16 years ago #
23. giveback
    

    And what would I do with them that I wouldn't do with us?

    Posted 16 years ago #
24. chrisc
    Member

    And what would I do with them that I wouldn't do with us?

    I don't know, perhaps people who know you better you could help you with this dilemma?

    Posted 16 years ago #
25. giveback
    

    Here is a very good chance of what would happen if I spent time "chatting with disinfo spreaders and disruptor's in a "big tent" style forum":

    At some point somebody would be blocked/banned on their forum, and very soon after somebody would voice their enthusiasm about the ban. I would do the same exact thing as I did in this forum. I would question their enthusiasm, and I would question the assumed positive effects of ban. Most likely I would source an alternative perspective of handling disruption, most likely Gandhi again. I probably would end up portraying myself, one way or another, as holier than thou, and at the same time portray myself as obscenely unsympathetic to the struggles of others in the forum.

    There's a great chance that they would say that I am being sympathetic to the one banned, and there's no point in sympathy since it clearly gets us nowhere, and maybe I should spend my time with those disinfo disruptor types which understand me, cause "divisiveness doesn't happen in our forums since we divide all that are divisive out" and "your team, and you have to have a team, is intending to wreck the movement, just like you".

    Posted 16 years ago #

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