Has anyone seen this on the FAA website?
I find the surface-to-air missile part of it rather interesting.
http://www.faa.gov/ats/dca/dcaweb/p56.htm
Also, is there a good record of prior scrambling in this region?
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Interesting site on the FAA website (14 posts)
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Posted 16 years ago #
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The surface to air missile claim would be a another good one for our claims project:
Posted 16 years ago # -
[christs4sale] I find the surface-to-air missile part of it rather interesting.
Yes, especially since the Last-Modified: date of the page and its accompanying GIF image says it has been posted since Thursday, November 05, 1998. A copy cached on the Wayback machine on 11-Jul-2000 concurs. Though for civillian air traffic the mere rumor of 'MSL' would serve as nicely.
One of my theories has Camp David as a possible source of a SAM or 'live' drone that doubly-tragically targeted Flight 93 (distance of ~80 miles vs. ~127 into D.C. proper). There is serious defensive hardware at Camp David, it being the traditional heads-of-state meeting spot.
The beginning of modern science is also the beginning of calamity. ~Karl Jaspers
Posted 16 years ago # -
First, how do you know MSL means missile? P56 is a subject John Judge has touched upon, by the way.
Second, there are no public scramble records known to 9/11 researchers - it would have been the job of the 9/11 Commission to obtain them, and there is no evidence in their report that they even thought of asking for them. We know only the figures mentioned to the press, of ca. 67 scramble orders in Sept 00-June 01 and ca. 129 in 2000. The what-when-where-how long items have never been released.
These standard procedures were activated on 67 occasions in the period from September 2000 to June 2001 (see, FAA news release, 8/9/02; AP, 8/13/02); and in 129 cases in the year 2000 (see, Calgary Herald, 10/13/01). These figures were released by FAA and NORAD officials to the press in 2002, but go completely unmentioned in The 9/11 Commission Report. The report does not indicate whether the Kean Commission requested comprehensive performance data on these prior interception orders from the military, or whether the military provided any such information. An analysis to determine the typical circumstances and response times for interception orders prior to 9/11 would require, in each case for which orders were issued, data on the times it took for air traffic control to determine that a flight was errant; for the FAA to alert NORAD; for NORAD to issue a scramble order and for the scrambled jet(s) to take to the air; and, subsequently, for the interception itself; as well as the location of the errant flight, and information on whether it was still broadcasting transponder data. (Transponder broadcasts from planes under IFR locate the craft and specify its altitude. When these are interrupted, craft can still be located by "skin paint" on primary radar, albeit without altitude data.) Also necessary would be data on cases of errant planes or unknowns in which no scramble orders were issued. Of special interest would be the prior performance within NORAD's Northeastern Air Defense Sector ("NEADS"), which is headquartered at Rome, New York. Such a cumulative analysis--with special attention to cases when passenger planes deviated from course in the air-traffic control zones within which the 9/11 attacks occurred--would provide indispensable context for serious research into the subject of air defense response on September 11. This data is currently unavailable to the public, and there is no indication such an analysis was undertaken by the Kean Commission.
http://justicefor911.org/iiA1_AirDefense_111904.ph...
From Nov. 2004 - needs to be updated on some points such as the release of a couple of Pentagon attack videos, the release of NORAD recordings to Vanity Fair and Loose Change, and above all the 2005 FOIA request by the National Security Archive which got a lot of FAA records here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB165/inde...
At any rate, the conflicting timelines question has never been treated anywhere except by the 9/11 Commission's evasive Chapter 1.
Posted 16 years ago # -
It could also mean mean sea level. Sorry for my hastiness.
John gives some of the best arguments showing that the hit at the Pentagon (I believe Flight 77) was a clear breakdown in standard operating procedure. Robin Hordon, a former ATC, said that there were no NORAD scrambles between June 2001 and September 11, 2001. This is because he believes in flight emergency procedures (quick responses) were eliminated bureaucratically in that time and only hijack procedure (the slow response) was left. He says that the released NORAD tapes reflect this as well. John Judge said in an email to me that there were definitely scrambles in that time. Unfortunately, neither gave a source.
Posted 16 years ago # -
I would think there were scrambles in that time, and that the numbers simply were never released after 9/11 but instead turned into a national secret.
At any rate, skeptics & debunkers alike are stuck without the actual numbers (which again need to specify a lot of different data points to establish a real baseline) and we're all debating the semi-literate NTSB report on "Payne Stewart" (21 minutes or 1:21?! since when are time zones not rationalized?!) because of something we do know exists beyond any doubt: the 9/11 cover-up.
Posted 16 years ago # -
Hi folks, new to this site but I do know for sure that MSL as shown above is commonly used on air nav charts and it does stand for Mean Sea Level. You will also see AMSL, Above Mean Sea Level.
Posted 16 years ago # -
The doubt many may have about the absolute certitude of a 9/11 cover-up is that it is not a cover up, but the consistent neglect, avoidance, disinterest, or aloofness exhibited very clearly in regards to preventative procedure and the investigative process thereof. That the administration's behavior is tragic, essentially just a byproduct of a particular condition of humanity which we can all very much relate to and give a pass to or develop ways to benefit from.
An offshoot of this would be the administration knew the cause of 9/11 (Osama bin Laden) soon after the attack, as it was deemed very apparent, and that is all that the public needs to know, and all the most of the public would want to know. Our security faults and our inner fissures are tacitly forgiven for the greater benefit of waging force against an outside source of pain, a source of pain which by appearances alone can be defined as acutely different than us, an extraordinary "them". This is a very American condition, and this administration, by intention and/or by habit, tapped into it. It's cover up of cover ups, on a grand social level.
Posted 16 years ago # -
ReverseEngineer--thanks for the clarification and welcome to the forum! I'm glad we could get to the bottom of this and didn't start promoting it as evidence for the existence of missile batteries.
Posted 16 years ago # -
Nicholas,
Now that you mention the archive on the GWU site, I noticed several months back that the flight path of Flight 77 into the Pentagon in the NTSB report was very different than what many of the 9/11 researchers have been saying.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/map....
vs
Posted 16 years ago # -
Oh! That's a whole other set of documents from the NTSB I had not noticed the "NSA" had acquired for us in 2006. Wow.
Here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/
(Your other link doesn't work.)
Posted 16 years ago # -
Now that you mention the archive on the GWU site, I noticed several months back that the flight path of Flight 77 into the Pentagon in the NTSB report was very different than what many of the 9/11 researchers have been saying.
If you're referring to Koeppel's old flight path map it's wrong. Unfortunately, it was accepted as being accurate, but it was way off. See here for explanation:
Pentagon Flight Path Misinformation, Stand-Down, War Games, and the Three Mysterious Planes http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2007/07/pentagon-...
"OLD" 270° LOOP EXPLAINED http://frustratingfraud.blogspot.com/2007/07/old-2...
Posted 16 years ago # -
Who is Koeppel? On our team or theirs?*
(* footnote for those who don't understand irony)
Posted 16 years ago # -
Oh, I see - the maker of THAT map, the one we've all been using like chumps (all teams, most of the time). Here's a big DUH...
Posted 16 years ago #
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