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William Pepper 9/11 Independent Citizens Commission (DOA?) - NYCCAN (157 posts)

26. JohnA
    Member

    i just hope it fails to get on the ballot. period.

    we may not be able to adequately communicate why LJ has been a liability to this movement to others. the history is simply too long and sordid to communicate to others - and some people simply refuse to listen.

    but - failure speaks volumes. who will get behind LJ on the next initiative if this one fails?

    but since you bring Luke up - he is a perfect example. he lined up with Les against us when we challenged Les on Criminal Politics. what could be more clear than CP? the magazine was vile to the extreme. it was self evident that LJ was showing poor judgment. right?

    yet - Luke lined up with LJ against us.

    months later when Luke and LJ had a very public falling out, and Luke finally saw the forest for the trees, did Luke suddenly realize he had chosen the wrong side? did he realize that we had been right all along - and perhaps we deserved - if not an apology - at least some conciliatory gesture?

    nope.

    awhile ago i was involved in a series of emails among a closed-list of 9/11 activists. i was unaware that Luke was even included in the list. but he reacted to seeing my name- and jumped into the dialgue - and expressed opinions that made it quite clear that nothing had changed.

    that is a very poignant example of the damage that LJ has done to this movement. he succeeds in dividing people so thoroughly that - even when he is exposed - the damage to relationships is usually too severe to repair.

    Posted 16 years ago #
27. NicholasLevis
    Member

    John,

    Consider that the conflict back then with LJ was, in part, very much a conflict with Luke and his circle about strategy and approach. Once Luke picks an idea, he's a blind warrior, and LJ didn't make him like that. Luke's the one who called us agents of the Illuminati. He doesn't want to see otherwise.

    This conflict could be described and expounded for many pages, but there are many ways to put it in a nutshell.

    Here are some:

    "Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime" or "Loose Change"?

    Nafeez Ahmed or Nico Haupt?

    "Press for Truth" or "Terrorstorm"?

    "Citizens' Commission" or "SCUM List"?

    "Improbable Collapse" or "9/11 Mysteries"?

    Jim Hoffman or Morgan Reynolds?

    cooperativeresearch.org or "Criminal Politics"?

    Steven Jones or Jim Fetzer?

    The September 11 families or voice-morphing and fake cell phone calls?

    Wargames or pods?

    "Hijacker" finance or "living hijackers"?

    Mike Ruppert or Alex Jones?

    Imperialism or NWO?

    Capitalism or Illuminati?

    Suits (for some, chosen as a necessary burden) or black t-shirt uniforms? (There's room for both of those, by the way.)

    Yell or scream?

    You get the idea. Easily digested junk research and dramatic (if ineffective) postures gained the upper hand in that group, and in many others.

    Posted 16 years ago #
28. truthmover
    Administrator

    months later when Luke and LJ had a very public falling out, and Luke finally saw the forest for the trees, did Luke suddenly realize he had chosen the wrong side? did he realize that we had been right all along - and perhaps we deserved - if not an apology - at least some conciliatory gesture? nope.

    I only brought up WAC because I was indicating that they would not be likely to work with Les on the ballot initiative. But as its on the table, I would say that I always felt really burned by the lack of an apology.

    Not only did he trash us, being the person who delivered one of the hate mail messages to us, and therefore being the only person we knew that actually endorsed its contents. But when his relationship fell apart with Les and he put nyc911truth up, the mission statement of that site was very nearly the same critique we had of Les. And the tactics Les used against him were the same he used against us.

    Anyway, it seems we all feel the same way about Les. Unfortunately, John, I don't agree that if he handles the initiative poorly that he won't be offered more opportunities to be responsible for something big. At least that's not what past experience would seem to indicate.

    The declaration was inspired in part by our frustrations about the "Ready for Mainstream" conference. That was the last straw for Jon Gold, but obviously not for many others. We know that many local nyc activists and people who have only seen him at conferences think he is a productive member of the movement. I can't tell you how many times people have told me that they support him because he's the only game in town. TruthMove wouldn't exist if we had that attitude.

    A bit of good news. Christ4sale is back in the mix. And we are going to start holding weekly organizing meetings announced on our home page. We are considering holding them in the new Vox Pop location. We also need something to organize, so we are starting to talk about a theme for our first mid sized event. Maybe trying to get 100 people to come listen to a couple of good speakers talk about broadly important issues. Hopefully, we'll announce the meetings within the next couple of weeks.

    It might be time to make Les irrelevant by replacing him. If we could establish ourselves better, I have some reason to think that we could start to outshine ny911truth pretty quickly.

    Posted 16 years ago #
29. christs4sale
    Administrator

    What about an initiative to remove Les Jamison from New York 9/11 Truth or at least highlighting in a more visible way what he is doing? I think this could at least be a recruiting tactic to get the right people from NY 9/11 Truth. Most people there do not realize the whole history with Les. I think a lot of people would be very responsive if we highlight just how undemocratic NY 9/11 Truth is. Ask its members if they have input on its website, its finances, its meetings, its conferences and its general direction or if it is just the predetermined Les show where you just show up.

    Posted 16 years ago #
30. Arabesque
    Member

    What about an initiative to remove Les Jamison from New York 9/11 Truth or at least highlighting in a more visible way what he is doing? I think this could at least be a recruiting tactic to get the right people from NY 9/11 Truth. Most people there do not realize the whole history with Les.

    Count me as one of them.

    we may not be able to adequately communicate why LJ has been a liability to this movement to others. the history is simply too long and sordid to communicate to others

    See above.

    If some want him removed, there should be presented a compelling case that he should be removed. Otherwise it can just come across to the uninformed as petty politics. And the same mistakes will be made in the future.

    I'm not convinced that this initiative will be a failure. It has the support of key family members and some very credible people. Further to that, the role of "Les" has been specified to be only related to the coordination of volunteers, as I believe Reprehensor has pointed out.

    Posted 16 years ago #
31. Arabesque
    Member

    http://www.911blogger.com/node/13476#comment-17531...

    Reprehensor:

    I received this note from William Pepper in response to concerns that some people have regarding the involvement of Les Jamieson, ny911truth, and other 9/11 Truth organizations;

    "While 9/11 Truth organizations all over the world, including New York City, are encouraged to support the establishment of the Commission for a re-investigation of the events surrounding 9/11, and also provide feedback and input in terms of this effort, none of these organizations, or their leaders have any control over the Commission or its ultimate search for the truth. Les Jamieson, for example, although long associated with the NYC 9/11 Truth organization is solely involved as the Coordinator of Volunteers. All staff will be supervised and monitored by the Commission and its relevant sub-committees."

    Posted 16 years ago #
32. Arabesque
    Member

    A statement from Van Auken:

    I was one of the 9/11 victims’ family members who fought to establish the 9/11 Commission. We wanted to understand how our nation, with all its security agencies, was so vulnerable to these attacks and we wanted to fix whatever loopholes might have existed that allowed the 9/11 hijackers to succeed. Towards that end, the family members researched the protocols of each of the agencies that had failed us, spoke with various whistleblowers and then compiled a comprehensive list of questions for the 9/11 Commissioners.

    However, after the 24-month “investigation”, most of these questions remain unanswered. With so many questions left unaddressed, more and more people are questioning the “official 9/11 story” each day.

    The 9/11 Commission was supposed to be an independent investigation into the details of the attacks, which went wherever the leads took it. Instead, we ended up with a political cover-up of 9/11. In place of a comprehensive final report, we have a report that is pathetically incomplete and agency reforms that may be doing more harm than good.

    So many things have happened to America in response to the attacks of 9/11. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were started. The Patriot Act was rushed through Congress without adequate debate. The current Administration has authorized warrantless spying on Americans. The rights of all American Citizens have been severely affected since 9/11.

    Basing the direction of our country on distortions or omissions of the truth cannot possibly make us safe.

    A real investigation into 9/11, one with full subpoena power and the ability to truly administer accountability, should commence before the America that we know and love, is gone. — Lorie Van Auken

    Mrs. Van Auken, a member of the 9/11 Commission's Family Steering Committee, has agreed to serve on our proposed new commission.

    http://www.support911justice.org/involved.htm

    Posted 16 years ago #
33. truthmod
    Administrator

    That's not very reassuring. Nothing so far leads me to believe that this isn't LES' baby. It may be someone else's original idea that Les has coopted (as he is wont to do), but he's clearly the point man behind it.

    Does the design of this site ring a bell to anyone??

    http://www.nyc911initiative.org/

    And whose voice is that on the "hotline" 646-537-1755 ?

    Posted 16 years ago #
34. Victronix
    Member

    Yes, he is likely the receiving end of all email and phone calls -- that's a very powerful position to be in, and one he would have to be in to coordinate volunteers.

    Reprehensor has great faith in a man who has done great work before, but also got on stage with Alfred Webre and Jim Fetzer on the Anniversary to speak to a small audience (and with Judy Wood before that). Why? It only lends credibility to them, not to him, when the videos are posted everywhere and proudly displayed on Fetzer's and Wood's sites. Why would someone who understands disinformation, participate in it?

    Edgar Mitchell is clearly not just about UFOs. UFOs are different from ESP, spoon bending, zero-point energy, spontaneous healing, etc.

    Posted 16 years ago #
35. Victronix
    Member

    Also, how are the subcommittees of Les' group really going to do anything about what he does, or even be aware of what he decides to do with the communications he's in charge of? It's not really a situation of accountability when the leader has subcommittees -- friends, likely, who depend on his work and experience -- overseeing him.

    Posted 16 years ago #
36. truthmover
    Administrator

    Nothing so far leads me to believe that this isn't LES' baby. It may be someone else's original idea that Les has coopted (as he is wont to do), but he's clearly the point man behind it.

    I think this is very clear. Maybe its more clear to those who have seen his past work, or the way he operates. But from what I understand, ny911truth is central to this plan, and Les is THE sole authority of that group.

    Does the design of this site ring a bell to anyone??

    Very much like ny911truth, 3C, the "Ready for Mainstream" site, and a couple of others Les had his hands in. This is also more apparent to those who have been paying attention to his antics. But there are a couple of things they all have in common. Many grammatical errors, often in the first paragraph, blue colors, and over-wrought, pseudo-intellectual/spiritual word use.

    Yes, he is likely the receiving end of all email and phone calls -- that's a very powerful position to be in, and one he would have to be in to coordinate volunteers.

    Thank you Vic for continuing to point out the main problem here. The most functional role in all of this is the person in charge of getting the necessary signatures. After all, at first that's the only step that matters. Without the signatures, all the rest amounts to nothing.

    It is not adequate to imply that Les is only one person among many. Les is presently the person with the most control over this plan. And I highly doubt that he is working with someone who is looking over his shoulder. The participation of Les Jamieson is a total disaster. He is not playing a minor role.

    Posted 16 years ago #
37. truthmover
    Administrator

    The petition contains the following:

    • Three: The Commission shall include Dr. William Pepper (international attorney and author), Lorie Van Auken (9/11 widow, representative of 9/11 victims families), Dr. Edgar Mitchell (Apollo 14 astronaut), Lincoln Chafee (former U.S. Senator), Mike Gravel (former U.S. Senator), Ed Asner (actor/activist), Ralph Schoenman (political scientist), Thomas Gumbleton (Roman Catholic Bishop), and others to be appointed by majority vote of the Commission members to bring the Commission up to as many as 15 members, and to fill any vacancies thereafter from nominees proposed by any member of the Commission. The Commission shall have a duty to maintain the number of Commissioners at no less than nine and to fill vacancies promptly.

    • Seven: The Commission shall have a budget not to exceed $10,000,000 per year for the conduct of its investigation and related activities. Financing shall be entirely drawn from private contributions. No public funds shall be requested or accepted. Four prominent citizens have pledged substantial matching fund contributions. In addition, pledges of specific contributions from wealthy private individuals are being obtained with payment subject to enactment of the Initiative by the voters of New York City. A substantial five figure seed money fund has been established as of January 2008, and a world wide internet fund raising campaign has been launched. Celebrity parties, concerts and other fund raising events and activities are also being planned to take place throughout the months of the Petition drive. Cumulatively, these sources will provide for the funding of the investigation. The work of the Commission will commence upon the expected realization of the full funds specified in our anticipated budget.

    • Eleven: Each Commissioner shall be paid a base annual salary of $100,000, plus reimbursement of out-of-pocket expenses actually incurred on behalf of the Commission, lodging, and transportation expenses to and from a Commissioner’s residence outside of New York City.

    Posted 16 years ago #
38. truthmod
    Administrator

    Looks destined or engineered to fail or be unfeasible. Classic Les Jamieson.

    Posted 16 years ago #
39. truthmover
    Administrator

    "Our target date is July 25th." - nyc911initiative.org

    July 19th:

    "Hip Hop Artists "Arrested Development" Endorses NYC 9/11 Ballot Initiative"

    Now what's needed is financial support. We've been fortunate enough to raise money to hire 30-40 petitioners over the past few weeks which resulted in some days when we brought in 600-700 signatures. We now want to raise the totals to at least 1,000 per day. We ask for your donations to make this reality. The presidential candidates raise millions per month. We need another $25,000. We need it today.

    http://www.911blogger.com/node/16725

    Posted 15 years ago #
40. truthmod
    Administrator

    Eminent member of the ballot initiative gets some coverage:

    Apollo 14 astronaut claims aliens HAVE made contact - but it has been covered up for 60 years
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-103...

    Aliens have contacted humans several times but governments have hidden the truth for 60 years, the sixth man to walk on the moon has claimed.

    Apollo 14 astronaut Dr Edgar Mitchell, said he was aware of many UFO visits to Earth during his career with NASA but each one was covered up.

    Dr Mitchell, 77, said during a radio interview that sources at the space agency who had had contact with aliens described the beings as 'little people who look strange to us.'

    Posted 15 years ago #
41. nornnxx65
    Member

    hadn't seen this thread before, but it ups my opinion of truthmove. A ballot initiative has potential, but this one has problems, and i really don't see the public getting behind this, imho, for the reasons outlined in this thread, and the ones I asked Les about in my email pasted below.

    erik larson to Les show details Jul 13 (10 days ago)

    Reply

    Hi Les,

    http://www.nyc911initiative.org/instructions.htm

    Yes, I saw this, but this isn't the language for the proposed law to be put on the ballot is it?

    Also, in a criminal or civil trial there's a discovery phase where each side gets to see all the evidence the other will be presenting, so i don't see why that would complicate things. They've had 7 years to destroy as much as they can already, and they know people are digging for stuff, just no one with any special legal authority.

    I think you'd get a lot more people supporting this if there was more info publicly available about what's intended.

    Erik - Hide quoted text -

    On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 7:58 AM, Les Jamieson <jazzyday @ earthlink.net> wrote:

    Hi Erik,

    There's a link for Instructions/Petition Download. Here is access to the actual legal language of the petition. As for as an outline of a new investigation, I don't think this is advisable at this point. Imagine any criminal trial. The prosecution wouldn't show its hand by outlining topics of investigation. If all goes as desired and an investigation does take place, we will call on all authors, researchers, expert witnesses, and whistleblowers who can contribute to the body of evidence.

    As for Commissioners, a group of activists in NYC with input from WillIam Pepper put together the current group. He brought in several. Now going forward we'll be taking suggestions from groups/individuals around the country. The existing Commissioners will have input and decision-making power as well. I hope this answers your questions.

    Best, Les

    -----Original Message-----

    From: erik larson <91erik@XXXX> Sent: Jul 7, 2008 2:09 PM To: info@nyc911initiative.org Subject: 911 initiative

    Hello,

    I can't find the text of the initiative on your site, or an outline of the proposed NEW investigation, such as questions and evidence to be considered, and witnesses to be called; please send me a link, or why haven't those things been posted?

    Also, who decided who would be asked and chosen to be a Commissioner?

    Thanks,

    Erik

    Posted 15 years ago #
42. truthmod
    Administrator

    Thanks Erik...

    We've had some pretty consistent critiques of Les Jamieson over the years. There are some other old threads you might find interesting...

    http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/530?replies=1...

    http://www.truthmove.org/forum/topic/12?replies=6

    Looks like Cryptogon is running the Mitchell story too, but nobody has made the ballot initiative connection, and you can't leave comments...

    http://cryptogon.com/?p=3073#comments

    Posted 15 years ago #
43. truthmover
    Administrator

    Les Jamieson, of the Civic Empowerment Network, volunteer coordinator for the NYC 9/11 Ballot Initiative http://www.nyc911initiative.org talks about the proposed voter initiative to amend the New York City Charter to create a temporary commission to investigate the events of 9/11. Produced by Gary Popkin. Originally aired August 7, 2007. Taped July 24, 2007

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6332216209...

    Posted 15 years ago #
44. nornnxx65
    Member

    thanks, truthmod and truthmover. Interesting? Good to know that nazi 9/11 stuff is out there and i hope i never see stuff like that again, turns my stomach. That list of sites is the person's recommended sites? It seems more like a who's who of bogus/possibly intentional disinfo/truth sabotage sites. I couldn't watch the video.

    I can't rule out other intelligent civilizations and i haven't really looked into the UFO stuff, but I've heard of sightings involving multiple otherwise credible witnesses- i think a more likely explanation is the govt has the technology and is preparing the public to believe we're being invaded by aliens, please save us Big Brother! Why doesn't cryptogon explore the possibility Mitchell's getting paid to say stuff like that? I don't know that he is, but it's possible.

    Col. Jenny Sparks: Black PR and proof of Paid Internet Shills (i submitted this link to oped, "interesting" comments) http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/link.php?id=64686

    I hope you guys start publishing articles, my next thing will be done soon and posted here and truthaction first for feedback. Truthmover, my response to your soliciting my thoughts about your writing an article may have seemed glib and not what you we're hoping for, but i'm more interested in seeing your perspective in an article format, than helping shape it.

    Truthmod/mover- here's another idea- go thru all your old posts on subjects you want to write about and copy/paste them into a .doc, you both probably have enuf material already to make into articles with minor editing, and doing that will help you clarify what you want to say.

    Question to all; do you have the experience that technology is evolving faster now than when you were a kid, or no difference?

    Posted 15 years ago #
45. truthmover
    Administrator

    thanks, truthmod and truthmover. Interesting? Good to know that nazi 9/11 stuff is out there and i hope i never see stuff like that again, turns my stomach. That list of sites is the person's recommended sites? It seems more like a who's who of bogus/possibly intentional disinfo/truth sabotage sites. I couldn't watch the video.

    Better to know than not. And I have always thought that looking to the links provided on any site is possibly the most telling indicator of their general orientation.

    I can't rule out other intelligent civilizations and i haven't really looked into the UFO stuff, but I've heard of sightings involving multiple otherwise credible witnesses- i think a more likely explanation is the govt has the technology and is preparing the public to believe we're being invaded by aliens, please save us Big Brother! Why doesn't cryptogon explore the possibility Mitchell's getting paid to say stuff like that? I don't know that he is, but it's possible.

    I'm totally into it. You might not know that for how vigorously I've defended the movement against it's inclusion. Statistically speaking, we know there is lots of life in the universe. We also know that its most likely so widely dispersed through space and time, that the chances of communication between worlds is infinitesimally small. But not zero. More importantly, this subject operates at the fringes of our spirituality, and is really in inward exploration in many ways.

    But, boy does that subject have absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 truth. We've learned in the movement not to speculate about who pays the bills and focus instead on directly addressing inappropriate behavior. It seems quite an unlikely coincidence that Mitchell was interviewed about his view just two days before the deadline to collect signatures. It certainly looks like he's a plant, but more important is the fact that we identify his behavior as damaging to the movement.

    I hope you guys start publishing articles, my next thing will be done soon and posted here and truthaction first for feedback. Truthmover, my response to your soliciting my thoughts about your writing an article may have seemed glib and not what you we're hoping for, but i'm more interested in seeing your perspective in an article format, than helping shape it.

    Truthmod/mover- here's another idea- go thru all your old posts on subjects you want to write about and copy/paste them into a .doc, you both probably have enuf material already to make into articles with minor editing, and doing that will help you clarify what you want to say.

    Thanks again for the encouragement. I've got a couple ideas in my head. I wasn't hoping for anything more from you than a clarification about which of the ideas I had expressed you found worthy of publication. I was simply addressing a number of distinct concerns that might be difficult to integrate into one essay. But I can just look at all of it and see what I come up with. Like the idea about the old posts. I've done that before. It's great to have such a resource.

    Question to all; do you have the experience that technology is evolving faster now than when you were a kid, or no difference?

    See "Moore's Law": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law

    Posted 15 years ago #
46. nornnxx65
    Member

    TruthMover- yeah, it was irresponsible of me to suggest that Cryptogon speculate if Mitchell was getting a check for his views; my indirect way of doing it myself. It's something I always wonder/assume when intelligent and experienced people act strangely or say strange things.

    Re: your upcoming articles; everything you posted that day was informative, but stuff becomes even clearer when we sit down to formulate it into an article, plus you would probably include links. Again, the fact that you're unsure of how narrow or broad to focus just means that you've got at least a couple articles to write on that topic, if not several.

    Moore's Law appears to be a microcosm of the Law of Accelerating Returns (From the Big Bang to the Information Age; where is the Universe headed from here/now?): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_accelerating_r...

    Also check out Ray Kurzweil, one of the pioneers in research on this topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_kurzweil

    The tech evolution acceleration we are witnessing now, in our lifetimes, in addition to and combined with the 9/11 Truth Movement and all the other grassroots truth-justice-humanity movements, leads me to be more optimistic all the time. Yes, i'm a romantic fool.

    Email me some good links re: the other life/civilizations if you don't want to post them, i'm interested. My theory is, if they're out there, we'll meet up once humanity transcends the limits of biology and space/time, which will happen by 2045 (if not sooner) with the Singularity (according to Kurzweil, if the trend of increasing information, order and complexity, which has been consistent for 13.7 billion years remains consistent). You're right, it's spiritual.

    Posted 15 years ago #
47. chrisc
    Member

    My theory is, if they're out there, we'll meet up once humanity transcends the limits of biology and space/time, which will happen by 2045

    I can't see humanity transcending the limits of fossil fuels before 2045 and personally I very much doubt humanity will ever transcend the "limits of biology and space/time"... I'm also very dubious of any theory that involves a "singularity" -- these things strike me that they are essentially "acts of god" and I have no belief in there being any god(s)... but I fear we are getting waaaaaaay off topic... Perhaps we should start a "god the universe and everything" thread...

    Posted 15 years ago #
48. nornnxx65
    Member

    Chris, you're right this is completely off the topic of the ballot initiative, and maybe should be moved (new thread, as you say?)

    Kurzweil's (and other's) research into the so-called "law of accelerating returns" only indirectly relate to the 9/11 Truth Movement; i think it's useful and instructive as the web has been instrumental in the spread of 9/11 truth info, in raising awareness and helping researchers and activists organize, and as Kurzweil predicted the popularity and power of the internet in his 1989 book Age of Intelligent Machines, and he's made dozens of other predictions about society and technology that have proved accurate, I'm personally very interested and always ask other people what they think. Fossil fuels are going to be economically obsolete by mid-century, but the gains being made in solar are following the same trend as Moore's Law, as are other information technologies, and will be cost-competitive with fossil fuels for producing electricity in 5 years at the rate things are progressing. This is also indirectly related to the 9/11 Truth Movement, as Cheney's energy task force indicates they believe in "peak oil" and possibly believed we needed to invade the mideast and establish hegemony as part of the overall PNAC plan to secure "American interests". If solar and other renewable energies are going to make oil obsolete even sooner, then it has the potential to decentralize power away from the elites. Nation-states around the world are funding research into thin-film solar, dye-sensitized solar, concentrated photovoltaics, thermal solar and other renewables- the price of oil skyrocketing has accelerated support and funding for projects. US parties and corps are doing this as well.

    Also instructive for the 9/11 truth movement, the collective environmental movement: Blessed Unrest: How the Largest Social Movement in History Is Restoring Grace, Justice, and Beauty to the World http://www.blessedunrest.com/

    Posted 15 years ago #
49. nornnxx65
    Member

    well, well, well- July 24 as well about Edgar Mitchell- in the NY Times- was the ballot initiative making that much of an impact?

    When an Astronaut Believes in Aliens http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/when-a...

    Posted 15 years ago #
50. truthmover
    Administrator

    A related thread over at TruthAction:

    "FoxNews Front Page Story on 9/11 Ballot Init. Commissioner"

    http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3898

    Posted 15 years ago #

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